"The Power Couple"
Carter Murray and Susan Credle are one of the advertising industry’s power couples. Smart, brave and generous, they have been partners since January of 2016, building new energy, belief and credibility into their company.
I talked to Carter and Susan about the challenges of maintaining a true CEO / CCO partnership, about why they are committed to a ‘step up’ culture, about why the best brands are ‘never finished’, and about how they are building an environment capable of both supporting and challenging world-class talent.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 6: Carter Murray & Susan Credle
Charles: This episode of Fearless was originally recorded as a webinar for the 4A's and my thanks to them for letting me use it. If you go to 4As.com, you'll find a wide range of leadership development offerings, including a series of webinars that I developed in partnership with the 4A's under the [inaudible 00:01:17] banner. The audio for the first half of this recording is less than perfect. For which you can blame an imperfect podcast host, Me. With that said, welcome to the show. Today's most successful businesses are the result of a mutually respectful marriage between creativity and commerce. Think of it as subjectivity meeting ROI. In the very best circumstances, that relationship is built on trust that extends not only to understanding and empathy for what the other side needs. But a genuine desire to create a win, win. Among leaders of creative businesses, this kind of alignment is so rare that I have come to believe that it represents a significant competitive advantage. I also believe this advantage is invisible until you look through the lens of how a business shows up everyday.
Carter Murray and Susan Credle are one of the advertising industry's power couples. Smart, brave and generous, they have been partners since January of 2016. Building new energy, belief and credibility into a company who's past for a while, had become better than its present. I talked to Carter and Susan recently about the challenges of maintaining a true partnership for a CEO and CCO, about why they are committed to a step up culture. About whether the best brands are never finished stories and about how they are building an environment capable of both supporting and challenging world class talent. I've described you guys as one of the industry power couples. You've been together for how long now?
Carter Murray: About a year and a half almost.
Charles: We're going to get into the story of how you guys met. What attracted to you guys to each other from a business standpoint and what you're doing [crosstalk 00:02:58].
Susan Credle: Everything's okay.
Charles: We're going to start with a quick question as Shelly mentioned. The poll question from the audience out there is, what is the ideal relationship between the CEO and the CCO?
Susan Credle: Wish there was a button.
Charles: We've got four options. The CEO makes the final call in every decision. Do you think that's the basis? The CEO makes business decisions, the CCO makes creative decisions? Every decision is made unanimously? Or every decision is made jointly? Just give the audience a minute.
Susan Credle: They're voting?
Charles: They're voting.
Carter Murray: My gosh, this is serious stuff.
Charles: Let's see what they think?
Shelley: I just closed the poll and 100% said every decision is made jointly.
Susan Credle: No.
Carter Murray: There I was, going to say absolutely.
Susan Credle: I think absolute, like every decision, it feels too regulatory. I think it's mutual respect for each other. I was saying that one of the things that I like about Carter as a partner is that he loves creative and I love business. We do share, we have a lot of conversation about the creative product and about how we run the business and about what's going on in the business. I do think we respect each other enough that the final call, business he makes, creative I make. With incredible respect for the input and the discussion.
Carter Murray: Yeah. I don't think I would make a major decision on the business without talking to Susan, also to Nigel, other members of my team. That's just not really how I like to do things. I think Susan has a similar philosophy. I think if you look at really successful ad agencies throughout previous decades and even today, they're built on unbelievably strong and true partnerships. I think where global networks and scale businesses struggle is, if you have a really talented CCO and a really talented CEO but they're not truly partners and they don't have that right respect for each other's roles. I love, I can drive everyone crazy with my sense of aesthetic, even though there's always a shirt untucked or something wrong. I do have a strong point of view on design and aesthetic. On creative I have a point of view. I would never, ever, I think ever override a decision that Susan made ultimately on the creative world. I don't think it's appropriate, then she wouldn't be my partner. We had a little discussion.
Susan Credle: Yes.
Carter Murray: We talked about it the past year and a half. I always talk about her being my business partner, not my creative partner. Sometimes, on the business I have to make a call. The discussion is, how do you make it a real partnership? Allow each other to do what we do, but not always have everything by committee. I think the way you do that is by respecting each other for what you're accountable for. I do think Michael Roth at Interpublic, one of the things I loved about him when I came onboard ... Welcome to the bloody obvious, we're not building spaceships. His big word when I came aboard was accountability. Susan is accountable ultimately for the creative product that leaves the building. My job is to make sure that I'm supporting her, empowering her, partnering her. Doing everything possible to make sure that great work is sold then to clients. I'm ultimately accountable for the business and with all the other parts that are in that. I actually think, when I was reading one, two, three and four, I actually think it's none of the above. I actually think it's a mix. That can make it tempestuous at times. We had a lively discussion, do you remember in your office, you're like, "We can't do this, it's a glass wall. Everyone's going to think we don't like each other."
Susan Credle: Well you know, we were told that we're kind of like parents. When they see us fighting and arguing, we have really great discussions. I was worried like, culturally we have to stop? I don't know if I like this job, half the fun is getting into a great, interesting discussion with someone who you respect intelligently and ethically. Which, that's the important thing, do I believe that you have the intelligence to be in this discussion and do we ethically have the same sort of standards? After that it's just bring it and let's call time out and go, "Okay, what do we think?" It's really interesting because a lot of times I'll go over to where he was or he'll come over to where I was because we've had a great discussion. That makes me feel like we're making smarter decisions together. The reason I don't think that you can do ever decision together is because it's just not economical. At some point, it's just like a team. You have the position that you play. Sometimes you have to jump over and play the other position. Sometimes you have to do something else. You have to know what each other is meant to do in case someone stumbles. It's good to play your position. I think that's sort of how we work, we have a bigger perspective of what we want to accomplish but we know our roles in that accomplishment and we try to play them.
Charles: There's a ton in there to unpack, and we're going to cover a lot of that in more detail over the next 45 minutes. I actually want to start it from a slightly different place and maybe a more personal one. What's your first memory of creativity. Carter?
Carter Murray: No, no, no. Susan's is so kick ass. Her story is so good. There's just no way-
Susan Credle: Which one are you talking about?
Carter Murray: You have to tell the story of the pool when you're watching the TV ad that stuck with you forever.
Susan Credle: Oh, first memory of advertising. Is that what you mean? Or creativity?
Charles: Creativity [crosstalk 00:08:39].
Susan Credle: Romper room was my first memory of creativity.
Carter Murray: Well tell the advertising one later because I love that story.
Susan Credle: I think one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about advertising is, I never saw the difference between advertising and branded content, or content. I just thought there was content that was interesting that I enjoyed and I recalled. Then there was content that I wanted to walk up to the TV and flip the channel. Or get in the car and drive away from. Avoid content and embrace content is how I looked at creativity. Carter's talking about a time when I think I was 13 or 14. I was in Greenbell South Carolina, Saturday afternoon in the basement of a middle class neighborhood. I was watching Ed McMahon, Star Search because I loved it.
Carter Murray: I loved Star Search. When I moved to the States, I loved Star Search.
Susan Credle: Yeah. I think The Voice and all these other, Dancing With the Stars are proof that there's always an audience for people that like to watch people succeed and fail at entertainment. As I'm in the basement sitting on my beanbag chair. This commercial for Chanel Number 5 comes out and it's called share the fantasy, Ridley Scott shot it at the time. I actually still love looking at it because I think it's somewhat a raw piece of art and editing and filmmaking that we hadn't seen. I definitely had never seen a pool surrounded by grass. I'd never seen a woman looking like that. The man, I'd never seen a man that looked like that and wore those kind of bathing suits.
At the end, I can't do the writing justice right now but it was like blue skies and then like share the fantasy. I'm 13, 14, I'm like, "I want in on the fantasy. I would love that. I would like to share the fantasy." I saved up all my babysitting money and I bought a little thing of Chanel Number 5 and I think I kept it there as much as an emblem which really the brand of everyday saying there's a fantasy out there that maybe I could be apart of. I still buy Chanel and keep Chanel around me because of that piece of advertising. I know this is getting a little too far out there, but what I find fascinating when I go back and think about that moment. At a time when we're talking about niche marketing and targeting and disregarding mass marketing as something that's wasteful or not good, or a lie.
I actually think the best brands are mass marketers, because they started, Chanel started making me believe something about a brand at 14 that I still believe today, many decades later. If we forget about that, if we forget about the moment that people need brands to help them tell their story. We might be missing, not only an incredible opportunity for the brands, but incredible opportunities for the people. A lot of times we think that purpose driven marketing is about saving the world. That ad, we would never look at, or that piece of creativity and say, "Well that's got a great purpose to it. Actually for me it did. It opened a world up to me that I would have never imagined. I might have gotten where I am today without Ed McMahon and that Chanel Number 5 ad, but I do know that it did show me something I didn't know existed. It invited me to be a part of it.
Charles: I was going to say, part of the role of creativity is to help people unlock their potential right? As you just framed, Carter and I were both honored, extremely honored to be at the Matrix Awards on Monday when you were recognized among the leading women in communication.
Carter Murray: Media.
Charles: Media right. There's no question that the path that you have chosen and the way that you have shown up on that path has allowed you to inspire thousands of people I suspect at this point. Changed the course of brands and in the process of that, I think changed the course of the world. To your point, it's hard to figure out how ... You can't always try and find a linear track from a piece of creativity to changing the world. Sometimes it has to go through somebody else. I think your point about let's put this stuff out there in the broadest way possible and see what [inaudible 00:12:59] because it's unpredictable. You can't know perfectly what's going to happen as the result of a creative exchange.
Susan Credle: Which is kind of interesting. We're always talking about, now we know everything. I think that's a scary premise, just to assume we know everything just because there's a lot of good [crosstalk 00:13:13]. Yeah. I don't think we do.
Charles: I think that's true. Carter, where did your aesthetic sense come from?
Carter Murray: Well I actually came from also my first memory of creativity. I grew up in a family business where we would buy high end residential real estate. Mostly in London, that nobody wanted and we'd turn these ugly ducklings into swans. My stepfather came from a long line of inventors and my mother was an incredibly creative, driven soul. I would spend most of my evenings eating out because my stepfather being Parisian didn't like to eat at home. I would sit there doing floor plans and layouts with them. Talking about how to reinvent properties. It was sort of a passion project I still have today. To be able to look at a building and then re concept it in a way no one else has been able to, whereby, when you're done, people will go, "Well how the hell did you do that?" That was some of the first tasks of creativity.
Then through I think my mother and stepfather, taking these old buildings and restoring them back to period and going and finding these old abandoned castles in France. Buying their wood and putting it back in a house in London and going to an old [inaudible 00:14:23] in Italy. I didn't realize at the time, it was just life. That was my life, was living, I think I lived in 30 homes in London in the space of about eight years.
Susan Credle: Not the basement in Greenbell South Carolina?
Carter Murray: Not the basement, no. Actually, funny you should say that. We lived feast and famine. Every time we sold a property we did have a shitty little basement flat we lived in for a few months in London. When I finally got a nice apartment high up, my stepfather came to visit. He said, "I'm getting vertigo here." I think I grew up with a very strong sense of aesthetic because it was really important to our lives and our business doing property. Yeah, in these jobs, I don't know half the type of you that are listening. Once you get into management in these businesses, you get tested to an inch of your life. I've had so many psychometric tests and God knows what else. One of these that keeps coming up is this huge sense of aesthetic. Which again, is a bit ironic because I'm always a mess. I do, I really care about things looking right.
We once had a meeting, not at this, two jobs ago. Two or three jobs ago. We had a meeting with a luxury client talking about their brand. I walk in the room and I stupidly wasn't there for the setup. We were serving them in plastic cups and paper plates and the room looked a mess. I just went, aesthetic is important. Actually today, I think with the fragmentation of the world in which we live in terms of media and content, I think aesthetic is even more important than it's ever been.
Susan Credle: Yeah, it's interesting. I think that we talk about disposable content. Which I get, but when we dispose of content, we start making it less aesthetically pleasing. One of the things that I've always thought about in this particular job, especially when you're doing mass creative and you're interrupting people's lives. Versus them choosing you, which I don't know if we're at the end of that or not. I don't think so. I think that craft, paying attention to craft, to your words, to language, I don't want it to be a lost art. I think it's important.
In fact, when I first started in the business talking about being responsible in a creative field, or in any field. To me, just the writing of anything, to get it right. To be tight about it, the art directors that understood [Kerning 00:16:45], [inaudible 00:16:46], how to break type. Those things were important, I think they made us better. I would love to see a stop, even if it is disposable content to understand that this craft makes an impression on us as a society. That when we start pulling away from craft and aesthetic, and stop caring, that has to have an impact. I think a profound impact over time and we need to all, marketers, everybody, understand that you're not just getting a message out there about your brand or your product or a sale.
You are having a positive or negative impact just on how you present yourself. I don't think we talk about that enough. I don't want to be someone who leaves this world and looks back and it's a lot of disposable trash. Trash like content and creative along the communications road, versus some beautiful. Even if they're not the award winning thing that everybody's celebrating in our industry. They're pieces that you feel good about, they're okay that you put them to the world.
Charles: I think what's fascinating to me about the two of you is that you both recognize the power of the medium in which you work. You understand the implications that at a macro level, at a societal level. Yet your jobs on a day to day basis are about helping unlock other people's ability to have that impact. It's not as much doing it yourselves.
Susan Credle: Have you talked to our people?
Charles: I have actually. Let's talk a little bit about how you guys navigate this marriage of art and commerce on a day to day basis through the lens of leading a creative business. There's a Theodore Roosevelt quote that I love which is, "Keep your eyes on the stars and your feet on the ground." I think there's a lot of that, to me anyway, wrapped up in the day to day reality of running a very creative but bottom line business. Carter, as you navigate your day to day, week to week, month to month dynamic, how do you reconcile these two pieces? As you said, Nigel holds you accountable to the business performance. How do you pull those two pieces together?
Carter Murray: I think one of the things that had surprised me a little bit is that we're in the creative business. The focus is on the creative product and it wasn't at the heart of the company. I work really, really hard to make sure the creative is at the very heart of the company. Then there's obviously discussion about what creative is. I think I was actually, so was Susan, we worked on that for a long time. When I started in 99, their mantra back then, it's evolved a lot over time. Then was, how do you help the client sell one more box? Whenever you were doing creative it's, how do you sell one more box? And for account management. I think we're not in the art world, we are where art and science and business meet. I think defining work that moves the dial ... Brian, Nigel's going to kill me. Probably Susan too.
Susan Credle: Probably for calling him Brian.
Carter Murray: I was thinking about [crosstalk 00:20:04] global strategy. Nigel's in England, hopefully he's missed this. Nigel, sorry mate. Nigel's our chief strategy officer worldwide.
Charles: At least until this morning.
Carter Murray: He was until he just quit. I do think that FE's are important but ultimately, it's the business results of our clients that matter. I think if our clients are doing well, we should be doing well. I think marrying the idea of having great creative and keeping our eyes on the stars and our feet on the ground is not a difficult thing to do. If you have the right people, with the right mindset. Then you have the right foundation of how you work, and dear old Nigel actually has rolled out a whole way of working. We talk about a brand bedrock and getting the positioning right for a client. Then you apply never finished creativity, which is something Susan's brought to the party in an incredibly powerful way. I think if you have the people, the right fundamentals of how you work, and put creative at the heart of everything you do. I think you do end up giving the client an unfair advantage with their marketing. I think you have a successful and happy business.
Charles: You talked to me a few days ago about when you first arrived, you recognized the need to put an organizational structure in place that provided the foundations on which to put great people.
Carter Murray: Yeah, I was quite relieved, I had two years to try to get the global company in a healthier, more accountable position before Susan arrived. To then be able to unleash all of Susan's talent and vision for where the industry's going. When I arrived, we were still a scale business, we were almost a billion dollars, about 8,000 people. It was a very old fashioned, archaic, regional structure, which I think belongs in the 80's. I think clients have changed their structures and I think the world has changed. Like almost any scaled, global business, about 80% of the revenue is in 20% of the operation. By restructuring the company and having the top 12 operations report directly in to me and the creatives directly into the CCO and the finance people directly into the CFOs. Then taking all the smaller operations and hiring someone who comes from a smaller operation to run all of those separately. You could be focused on where the business was, where the clients needed you most, where the opportunity was. Then you could start focusing on, do I have the right talent in the key places?
I think by removing the layers, by removing the hierarchy, it also allowed me to go straight to where the big operations were. Like New York, like Shanghai, like London and go and hire the very, very best people and say, "Look, you don't have to worry about any sort of bullshit, regional hierarchical structure. You will report directly into me. We will be business partners, we will do this together." I think getting that structure right and following the numbers to get the structures right, then allowed us to turn the company around really quickly. Where we won 250 pitches around the world last year and we had our best account ever. Don't get me wrong, I think we always can improve and we have a ton of work to do. I think the speed with which we managed to get that positive momentum going started by structuring the company in a much more effective way. Then just hiring brilliant people and giving them that opportunity to rise and to shine.
Charles: Susan, you talked to me in the past about being a creative person who loves business. How do you marry those two pieces from the creative side?
Susan Credle: Well I think the biggest thing is that I like building brands. I think building brands leads to great business. We hear like, "People aren't brand loyal today." I wonder if that's our fault as an industry. We don't build brands. I look at this Roosevelt quote about keep your feed on the ground and your eyes towards the stars. In some ways I like another one which is, "Build trees knowing you'll never sit under the shade." We don't do enough of that.
Carter Murray: I love that. You've never told me that quote before. That's awesome.
Susan Credle: I've got a few more.
Carter Murray: She keeps bringing these up.
Susan Credle: One a year.
Carter Murray: What's the other one about you're so far behind you think you're in front? I love that one.
Susan Credle: That's dad's, "I'm so far behind I think I'm first."
Carter Murray: I love that quote.
Susan Credle: That's like my emperor's new clothes. I'm like, I'm here. Oh lord, the party's over. I do think, this is particularly sensitive to me today because we had been working on an idea for a client for over a year that I felt was foundationally brilliant. Solid thinking, great thinking, a wonderful organizing line that we call a tag line, which I really love tag lines. I think if you write them correctly, you should lean into them for at least two decades, maybe more. If the tag line goes away, the spirit of that tag line, you keep leaning into. Anyways, we'd been working a year. I think about all the hours of talent on both sides going in. You find out, new people come in, they change the partnership and that incredible amount of work that was just when you're getting ready to launch the creative rocket is gone.
We have got to not do that in this business. Even if we switch partners, respect the time that was put into getting to great thinking and great, foundational creative thinking and then build off of it again. We start over too often. I think if you understand why brand exists in the world, sometimes that's lofty and sometimes it's very rational. You understand why it exists and you keep expressing that need to exist through creative ideas. You will turn around over time and realize you have built a brand and probably you will turn around and realize you have put some pretty famous creative out there. I always say it's a little bit like the first season, or the first couple of shows of any series. They're building so they have to tell you who the characters are, what the location is, what the motivations are. Once they get that hard work done, then it really starts to take off creatively and build and audience.
We don't give ourselves time to do that foundational creative thinking so that we can do the shorthand that allows us to do not only great creative. But to attribute that to those brands and those brands get credit for it. Right now I think we see a lot of cool creative, but I'm not sure a lot of people know who's doing it. If it's being credited to the brand and building on a longer story which we call never finished ideas. So that creativity with these chapters in a brand's story. A brand's story is told by reiterating through different ways of platforms, creativity, ideas, IP why what that brand stands for is important. Just knowing what that brand stands for.
Carter Murray: I think that resonates with me so much. One of my early lessons around that actually was working at [inaudible 00:26:58] four years ago. Don't leave home without it was its tag line. That was an incredible campaign that ran for years.
Susan Credle: Yes.
Carter Murray: I was conscious at the time that the agency and the client dropped it because they were bored of it but it could have gone on for a couple more decades.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: You could argue that it would still be powerful today actually.
Susan Credle: An urban legend I heard early on in my career was that there was a CEO of a pen company. I don't know which pen company it was, they had done some print ads that he felt were beautiful. He called Phil Ducenberry and said, "Phil, I need to come talk to you about the campaign. You know I love it, I've got it framed. You can see them all as you walk towards my office. I adore the campaign but I really think we need to be conscious of resting on our morelsand we need to start thinking about a new bree." Well Phil goes, "Well they haven't run yet." These kind of stories are important, by the way with everybody shouting, do you know how many times I have to introduce myself to people before they remember I'm Susan? A lot.
We sometimes are apologetic about introducing our brand but there's a new generation coming every couple of decades that doesn't know your bran or your brand's story. It's unrelentless and I love Fernando Muchato who works at Burger King. He says, "The good thing about advertising and branding and marketing is nobody remembers. You have to keep doing it." We're not going out of business. You have to keep telling your story and you have to keep telling it in new ways.
Carter Murray: So true.
Susan Credle: To a new audience that didn't know your story. It's interesting, I think that's a little bit what's happening with mature brands and marketing. I think we've heard something about CMO's, there's a huge statistic about CMO's who are not sure whether marketing really matters anymore. I would bet that a lot of those people are working on mature brands where there is an assumption that everybody knows this. If I keep telling them, do I really need to? It's like, not maybe them but for people coming up, are you building that new audience and that new brand loyalist.
Charles: Yeah, I think that's actually an important point. The success, Carter, that you were describing which has happened so quickly. It's clearly, at least from my perspective, a concert of a lot of things but not least of which is a partnership that you guys have created between the two of you. This thought struck me actually this morning coming over here. Which is leadership alignment is a comparative advantage. I think it's one of those things that a lot of companies don't think about hard enough. That they don't work enough at it, they're not conscious of the chemistry of putting the right leadership team together. They don't do the kind of work that you guys have already done to figure out, what do we think about everything. What do we care about, what do we share? Let's just talk a little bit about how you guys have built a partnership. What drew you to Susan? What is it you were looking for in a creative partner?
Carter Murray: Well when I was looking for a new global CCO, I went to about five headhunters and about 20 people that I knew who knew creative leadership really, really well. Almost to a person they said, "There's only two people you should reach out to." One is Tore and one is Susan. It was interesting because there were other names that came along the place. Those are the two. Our model for success, I'd love to say that I took over the job and went, "This is my model for success." What seems to have worked that I'm staying quite true to now is, and the vast majority of hires and promotions from within. Well promotion from within by definition is this, but a step up talent. It's finding people who have hit a glass ceiling or a velvet ceiling, any type of ceiling you want to describe. Or frankly, are just so on the rocket ship up, they haven't been offered the job yet, and have them step into the C suite. Then our philosophy is just to surround them with brilliant people and make them even more successful than they think they can be.
When I talked to [inaudible 00:31:08] they said, "Look you really need to talk to Susan. She's a complete rockstar in the United States in our industry. If you don't know who she is, it's a bit odd." Tore was actually just about to head off to Apple so I didn't even approach him. Once her name came up time and again, I was [inaudible 00:31:27] I started asking around and it was one of those things where I knew I wanted someone to come in who could really be articulate and talk about platform ideas. Big ideas, whatever you want to call them, we now call them never finished ideas which, I think is much more articulate when you understand what that means behind it. Susan so clearly had that. She's probably known in the industry for being one of the most passionate, articulate people of the craft of advertising and famous for having done many famous campaigns.
That was my initial reason to reach out to her. I'd say I was a bit intimidated, she had a larger than life reputation, pretty famous. All these press articles, you think my God. [crosstalk 00:32:12]. Yeah, you're the little widget, your Matrix speech the other night. Then I met her, apart from going to UNC which was a bit of a sticking point for us. She was the most lovely, open, caring, generous human person you could think to hire into such an important role. The global CCO is the most important role in our company. There was that immediate connection for me. The tipping point came when she said I had to go out for lunch with her husband. Well I'm like, "That's just bloody cool. I just like that." I went out for lunch with Joe and it just reinforced everything. To have someone who's that talented, who's that successful, who is still that hungry to break new ground, who still loves the craft, who cares about people. To be her partner and help her step up into the global role from North America and be that person that I think she is. A professional person, she keeps reaching and reaching and reaching for those stars, was pretty bloody awesome. I get excited, I get a little tingly just talking about it. Yeah, you go after that Susan, over to you. It's true. That's how I feel.
Charles: This was a step up role for you as well.
Carter Murray: That's where the step up role thing kind of works. My whole career seems to have been step up roles where I keep drinking from the fire hose. I was the CEO of North America for a year at [inaudible 00:33:40], suddenly was given this job to run this rather large business. I always appreciated that opportunity that someone saw that in me. It helped me then, I put a planner in China into the CEO role, he's been killing it. We put a 32 year old, I think 31 when he took over in Canada. He took a 40, 50 million dollar agency, he won the biggest pitch of the year in Canada last year. He took us from, three years ago we were a bit of a dinosaur to digital agency of the year. He's 33. Age isn't anything by any stretch.
Charles: We can emphasize that point.
Carter Murray: I do think stepping up into roles is something people have given me the opportunity and I really believe in giving people the opportunities that I've been given.
Charles: [inaudible 00:34:30].
Susan Credle: It's interesting, you never know when you're making your first impression or when you're starting that first conversation. I actually met Carter, I think at an ad council meeting when he was at WNR and I was Lee and he came bouncing over as Carter does. He's like, "Hey, I just wanted to say I've heard some stuff about you and I just wanted to come over and say hi. Maybe we could be friends, maybe we could connect at some point. Anyways, hi, bye." And he gave me his card. I'm like, "Who was that?" You don't forget Carter because he has this awesome accent and this tall body that he's impressionable.
When he called a couple years later, three years later. I was like, "Oh you're that bouncy guy from the dinner." He just felt like he was real, he was genuine, he was a happy guy. I have, my entire career, because at the beginning of my career I didn't do this. I take very seriously who I spend my time with. I used to say, as long as they're talented I don't care. Today it's, I have to love them. I have to enjoy it, I have to be proud of them. If I see them on the street I'm excited like, "Oh my God." Versus like I'm ducking into the [inaudible 00:35:51] because I don't want to see this guy. That's the very first thing. That's kind of why I had him go out to lunch with Joe. My gut was already like yeah, I like him. That was the first thing. Then his point of view, I remember I had a first meeting with someone else in Carter's position and at the end of the breakfast the person said, "After all we are in a service business." I was like, we're done. I enjoyed the breakfast, I thought the person was intelligent. The minute he said, "We're in a service business."
I start almost every talk with people that aren't in the creative department, "Do you believe we're in a service business or we make a product?" At the beginning of that talk, everybody raises their hand for service and by the end of the talk, they all know we make a product. The fact that someone was running a company and thought they were in a service business, and didn't know they made a product was an instant no. Whereas, Carter was the opposite, was like, "It's all about the creative. We are all in service to what we make." I was like, "We'll keep taking." That was-
Carter Murray: I didn't think it was rocket science. When I took on this job I remember going to a journalist and going, "This is a business." They went, "No, no, no it's actually quite different." I'm like seriously? This is like 101, if you're a student of advertising, it's about the work. Somehow as you go up through the ranks, people forget that.
Susan Credle: Service is very important. We should be on time, we should bring good value. We should be funny or polite or whatever makes that partnership great. It's in service to making a product that builds a brand, builds a business and our partners. I say partners because I think vendors, it's a very dangerous world. When you look at the creative that garners the most attention and the most applause, most of the time when you go back and look at how that creative was made, it was in a partnership. I think the statistic was usually the partnerships are eighth years old. Again, if we're talking about creativity and a creative product and we don't believe partnerships are important, I think you're going to be ... We call them shooting star ideas, great creative but it just goes up in the sky and disappears. Whereas, creating suns that are bright over time. I think those come out of partnerships and I think shooting stars comes out of vendor relationships.
Charles: Which is actually a perfect segue to talk about the fact that not only do you have a shared mission, a shared view of what you're trying to accomplish but you have shared values. I think you talked to me in the past about the fact that you saw that in each other very quickly. You have a hashtag you use, talent above all else.
Carter Murray: Yeah, that was on my Instagram account that sort of took on a life of its own. I used my personal account, my parents and friends follow me and it sort of became my work account too. I didn't want to be perceived as the guy in the ivory tower. I tarted putting this talent above all else because I started showcasing these cool people I go to work with around the world. Yeah, it's so basic again. I think it's difficult, someone says, if you don't have anything good to say about anyone don't say anything at all. I will say that putting people first has become very difficult in some of the holding company structures that exist today. One of the things that I do love about [Interpublic 00:39:19] is that Michael Roth says, "I'm not a brand, I manage brands." He lets us define what our brand and our culture is. We're not micro manged from the holding company. I think that allows us to invest in people in a way that perhaps doesn't always happen elsewhere. Now, is everyone happy in our company? Is everyone running to work? No. Do we still have a hell of a lot of work to do? Yes.
Susan Credle: Get out the cotton candy machine.
Carter Murray: Right. We take this really, really seriously. I see it, my grandfather was an entrepreneur and he had 800 people in a factory who worked for him. I was raised by my mother and by him always saying, and his family saying, "Every night you go to sleep, 800 people's livelihoods are your responsibility." I feel that way about 8,000. I feel accountable, not just to clients, I feel accountable to all the employees. It's really hard. It's tough to do right by every employee everyday. In fact, it's impossible.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: I do think that Susan and I have this shared belief that you have to care for people, you have to invest in people. You have to be forthright with people. We just spend three weeks doing talent reviews around the world. Which, I don't know any other ... Companies do it but we do the [inaudible 00:40:33] review and Susan was loving it. We actually do go through and go, are we investing in coaching? Are we investing in training? Are we sending this person on a course? Is this person not right for advertising? Has someone had the tough conversation with them and said, "You deserve to be happy and successful and we think in this role you never will be that."
Or, "You're in this job, perhaps you have other priorities you want to do too. We don't see you getting promoted right now. Are you happy? Are you okay with that?" Having the honest conversations, from the people doing well to the people not going well. I just think being forthright and caring is so important. Susan and I definitely connected on that front. Susan cares, and that's important. She also has very, very high standards. I think one of the things when she's come onboard is we had the momentum and the progress but I think she's raised the bar to the next level. I think it's been really interesting to watch the brilliant people continue to improve. Some people self select out because they can't keep up with the pace and the acceleration of the progress. That's not a bad thing either for everyone involved. Then there are some people in that middle ground. There it's fun to help them raise their game and their profile.
Charles: I think exactly, I've watched other businesses grow, I've been part of a company that grew to world class status. I arrived thinking, "If I give everybody the same chance, they'll all be capable of greatness." You discover that's not true. Some people just can't get to the level you need. You have to be honest and straightforward with them for their own sake as much as anything else. You have, Susan, you have a core belief in generosity. You talk about it, you write about it. This notion of talent above all else and generosity seem to me to be pretty closely connected.
Susan Credle: Yeah. It's interesting, Carter also has a line that I like a lot which is, all people first. I think that's really important. I believe in hierarchy because I think you do need structure and you do need ambition to go to another level if you want to. That's different than all people first. Which is respect for everybody and that everybody that walks into any one of our FCB offices can have an effect on us positively or negatively by how they do their job. I tell a story about when I gave the receptionist at BBDO their bathroom breaks.
I took that job very seriously versus going, "I can't believe I graduated from University of North Carolina and I'm giving the bathroom breaks to the receptionists." Every floor, I would go, whether it was the creative floor or the global floor or whatever and I would answer the phone according to what I thought that floor was. The global floor I'd be like, "Hello, BBDO Worldwide, how can I direct your call?" Then if it was the creative floor I'd be like, "Hey it's BBDO. What's up where do you want to go?" I took it seriously. I was like, "How can I do my job better than anybody else that ever did this job?" I think that that matters. No matter where you are in the company, that you are getting a paycheck and you mean something to this company because we need you here. To be a part of that and to realize what you're a part of.
I also think that as a leader, generosity is the key default when you're confused. It's, how can I be the most generous to this person, to this company, to this group, to this client? What is the most generous thing I can do? I think to choose generosity, one, I think the talent above all else is it requires ... I think a lot of people still fight with other people's success. As meaning that they weren't. I get it every once in a while. There was an email the other day from a CCO in Europe that was thanking this person that had done all this work on a project that they were working on. I was like, "Well I spent a lot of time." Then I was like, "Okay, that's not generous. That's very selfish to go where's my name?" Again, we have to always fine tune what it means to really want talent to succeed. It does mean being generous with those around you. Versus self centered about how am I doing? I think it requires waking up everyday saying, "I want to be a generous leader. I have to have confidence that I got here out of some kind of talent. I don't have to keep defending that." I think it's really hard to make that change from justifying your own reason for being and then letting that go and then being generous to others who, it's their turn.
Charles: It's part of human nature as well I think.
Susan Credle: Well survival.
Charles: Most of us are still questioning, do I have the right to sit at this table in this moment and have this conversation?
Carter Murray: We have an impostor syndrome.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Charles: Yeah. I think when you really strip the layers away from almost everybody, there is some aspect of that I find in most people.
Susan Credle: I think that a way that I deal with that, because I do feel it a lot. You're not going to wake up one morning and suddenly get a title and get a new brain. It's just who you are. Think of it as a position that you're filling than something you've earned. It's like, my position is to help other people succeed and to try to improve the creative product of FCB. To hopefully make sure that advertising marketing communications is an important part of brands and businesses. It's just a job, do it to the best of your ability while you've been given it. Sometimes that helps me versus that all of the sudden I have to be some profit or some talented person that's out talenting everybody. Which is not true. In fact, I think my success is built on hiring people that I find incredibly talented and just using my experience.
Andre 3,000 said something about mentorship that I loved. He said, "Sons and dads, what's a mentor?" He goes, "You know how we're playing this video game and you think I'm terrible?" He goes, "Yeah." He goes, "You tell me, dad if you'll just go in that door and push the green button and jump on this thing, you'll get to the next level and so I do it." He goes, "Yeah." He goes, "How long did it take you to learn how to get through the green door and the green button and whatever?" He goes, "All summer." He goes, "Yeah, I'm terrible and it only took me 15 minutes. You just mentored me in this game." I think that's a lot about what we do in leadership. Is that the mentoring is not cheerleading for someone it's actually saying, "You know what? I can save you six months of learning by telling you an experience that I had that took me three years to learn." I think that's our job. When you think about the experiences and if you're generous with those, I think you'll find that you do deserve to be in that leadership position and you do have value in it.
Carter Murray: I do think you need people who do want to be receptive to learning. One of the things I love about Susan and I try to do and certainly in people I look to hire and work with are people who are looking to learn every day. Who don't feel they're at the top and everything else is gravy.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: I think that desire to constantly be learning every day, because it's really by listening. I was giving a speech on diversity yesterday in Chicago. Never in a million years did I think when I started this career, I was an assistant account executive, I'd be onstage as a white, heterosexual, male, Duke frat boy on stage talking about diversity. The reason that I've become so passionate about it is because I've heard the stories of what people go through every day and it's just fucking wrong. I think had I not really listened, and boy are some of those conversations to listen to hard. Really hard as a leader about what women go through, what the LGBT community go through every day, what people of different ethnic backgrounds go through every day, it's just wrong.
You have to listen to those stories because I wasn't aware. Not being aware is not an excuse. You can take that to your professional career, you can take that to your job, to everything. I do think that ability to listen is really, really important. Because I am, to Susan's point, so fifth gear slightly overly enthusiastic. Sometimes, it appears that I'm not listening. What I've realized over the last two or three years, through some coaching as well is, I am listening but I don't always give the appearance to. The people I respect and adore the most and learn the most from, are the people who listen the most as well.
When we talk about talent, I look for that in talent. I think it's hugely, hugely important to invest in people who want to learn. If someone doesn't want to do coaching, coaching is useless. If someone doesn't want to take, to Susan's example, that person's experience. A lot of people would be like, "Yeah, thanks for that advice but I'm still going to go left and not right." I think that's probably one of the most important things I've taken onboard recently is that appreciation for listening.
Susan Credle: Also, don't be afraid. I tell a lot of people, "I don't have an opinion on this one. I just don't. You're smart, you decide what you want to do." Then there are times when I'm like, "I've got to tell you, my gut is screaming right now that you should not do this. It would be wrong for me not to tell you that." I don't think just because you're the leader, you have to always have an answer.
Charles: I do think one of the things that frustrated me from working for other leaders, there are some leaders I worshiped and loved and adored and learnt a ton from. There's also quite a few I've learnt what I don't want to be as a leader. I think thinking that you have to be the smartest person in the room is such a problem. I think when people get promoted up, they think they have to be the authority in the room and they think they have to be the smartest. Some really do believe they're the smartest person in the room. They're just bloody annoying. It speaks actually to the shift in the workforce. I think that with more and more evidence that millennials, gen Y and gen Z in particular are no longer as interested in organizational chart hierarchy and authority. They don't really care as much as our generation did.
Susan Credle: I don't know, I don't know if I agree with that. Even at Leo Burnet and even at FCB a little bit, some of the things that I've heard from younger people is, "I need a path and I need someone to teach me." They come in with a lot of skills and a lot of points of view. I think when we flatten it completely, I've seen it get.
Charles: Yeah, no sorry. I'm not suggesting that flat org is the right answer. I think what people are looking for is, they don't care about your title, they care about how you show up in the room.
Susan Credle: Sure, yeah, yeah.
Carter Murray: Well I do think the old forms of hierarchical leadership are still very much in place, but I think they're bullshit. I think in this fluid marketplace of talent where talent doesn't stay for a whole career somewhere.
Carter Murray: I think with the advent of social media, and the way that generation lives, I think to be beholden to a boss and a hierarchical boss who's an asshole is kind of diminishing. I do think that's changing.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: I do think Susan's right. I do think people coming in, their demands are actually higher. They want the leadership, they want the support, they want to work for someone they can believe in. They want meaning. We talk about brands today need purpose. I think people want to work for a company and leaders they can believe in.
Susan Credle: It's amazing to me to watch a group that's struggling and then you put the right leader on top.
Carter Murray: It's amazing.
Susan Credle: Then all of the sudden you're like, "These people are terrific."
Charles: It doesn't have to be somebody with a specific title, it has to be somebody who shows up in the room. To your point, Carter, brings purpose, brings focus, brings relevance.
Carter Murray: You talk about leadership, we have our chief of staff is a lady called Alyssa Phillips. When I arrived in the company, she had a title. She was a part of global creative coordination and Alyssa, I've probably got the title wrong if you're listening. I'm full of getting things wrong in this call. When I went into the company, everyone that I spoke to from the CCO's to the CEO to the CFO, everyone spoke about her with respect.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: With admiration. Actually when the company was financially going through a really difficult time, she was the one that rallied a core group of creatives, with Jonathan who was the CCO and before that with the CCO before. She was someone that the people looked up to and led and could bring people together. She didn't have the big fancy title.
Charles: Right, exactly.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: Now we've made her chief of staff. I want to make her chief of everything.
Susan Credle: I was about to say, yeah. [crosstalk 00:53:23].
Carter Murray: Title. I absolutely don't think it's about, it doesn't have to be about the title.
Carter Murray: I do think Susan's right in terms of when you do put in a CEO or a CCO or a CSO into a company or group or team that have lost direction or purpose. It's incredible how fast you can turn it around.
Carter Murray: That's fun, that's a fun part of the job is to see that.
Susan Credle: Another thing I think Carter preaches all the time around the world is, that that relationship, in the same way that it's important to us, the CEO and the CCO's relationship must be mutually respectful. Have the same point of view about what they're trying to accomplish. I think we've seen again, incredible success when we know those two people have each other's backs. When there's tension or friction-
Carter Murray: We spend our time together trying to make sure we remove the tension and the friction that occurs.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: It can right, between a CEO and a CCO. In fact, we spent time the other day with a team because the CCO was saying, "I see the CEO as my boss, not as my partner." Which is a problem because then you don't tell them everything you want to say.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: Then the CO then replies, "I'm a bit worried if I talk to this person, something can happen. There's a trust issue there." We had to clear that up.
Susan Credle: Yeah.
Carter Murray: I think trust and respect, easy words to throw around right. You know you've got a problem when you see those in massive letters in a reception. Normally, if you have to put those massive letters in the reception hall, you have to take the doors off to have an open door policy, you know you've got problems. Susan and I work really hard on that respect and trust. When we feel that breaks down, we call that out to each other. I get a little ... In my stomach when I feel I've lost her trust or respect. I spend like a week worrying, "Oh my God, what have I done? Susan I'm so sorry. We've got to get this right. You were right and I was wrong. Let's go left, not right." I think respect and trust is built through being forthright and through-
Susan Credle: Yeah, Carter came in the other day and he said, "I think we feel the opposite about something and I just want to talk about it a little longer." I'm like, "Okay." Actually, what had happened is that he had misinterpreted something I had said about how in my past I grew up in a brutal, tough, fear based sort of organization structure. It was fun, that was the atmosphere. He thought that I was feeling that that was important to getting the best work out of people. What I had felt is, I always wondered if I hadn't grown up in that, would I have gotten further sooner? Would I have been better actually than even with that environment? It was a misunderstanding, it was just good to talk about.
Carter Murray: I had come at it because it was [inaudible 00:56:10] at me. I was like our culture's very much one way. We want each other to be successful. Hopefully more people feel that in the global company. I think that's the hardest thing to do in a scaled organization. Is for people to feel that everyone wants each other to be successful rather than if you're successful, it's at my cost. I think our culture that we want to have is absurdly talented people who thrive from learning from the people on the left and the right. Not fearing the people on the left and the right. It's a very, very different culture. I'm really glad we talked about it because we are totally aligned on the type of culture we want to have. We're both very ambitious and hungry to break new ground and be leaders. Be leaders in the industry that our employees can be proud of.
Susan Credle: It's interesting, you're on this earth for a half a second.
Carter Murray: This is getting very deep.
Susan Credle: It is. Do I want to lead a company where people came to work and felt brutalized and didn't enjoy coming to work? I want to come to work and be happy. I already have four hard phone calls this morning, because I'm surrounded by people and a company that I know support me. There's not that angst and fear built in, it's just like let's get this job done. If you feel supported, I think you enjoy the company you keep. That's the goal. It's not that it's easy and happy every day. I think there's a way to create a culture where I want people to want to come into work and feel good about who they're coming to work with.
Carter Murray: Yeah, I agree, and it's not like singing kumbaya by any stretch of the imagination. I think when we've parted ways with people I always think if it's a surprise, that's a terrible thing. I hope that hasn't happened too often. I think part of being human again is being honest with people. Sometimes the chemistry's wrong, sometimes the performance isn't there. It's not just about let's be happy clappy. That's not at all what we're talking about. I think it's about trying in a performance led business where you're trying to create momentum, where you're trying to be successful as a business. Where you're trying to do groundbreaking work, doing it in a way where you're treating people the right way.
Charles: You guys as you've alluded to, as you've suggested, you're running a global business. Running a global business is a really difficult thing because it's so diverse, it's distributed. It's really hard to get everybody together. It's impossible to get everybody together, it would be 8,000 people. Let's talk for a little bit about how you go about creating this kind of momentum, building this kind of culture. Imbuing the company with the kinds of values that you guys have talked about. How have you gone about doing that? You've talked to me in the past about removing bureaucracy.
Carter Murray: Well we've also invested a lot. Which I think again being in this holding company and being allowed to do it within our business plan and the way we do it, others do. Not all, but I think we're very much supportive. We invest heavily in it. We have a robust HR team and process with organizing talent. We did a global meeting in South Africa where we had our top 100 executives. That's not a cheap thing to do. It was incredible for seeing people sharing their knowledge their experiences. I think now people call each other up directly when they need support on clients and bus. For our culture, that was hugely important.
We have Cannes, which is a rallying point for us. Susan and I were saying, well even before Susan arrived. The destination is part of the journey, which sounds kind of cheesy, but it's true. We invest a lot, and I just talked about three or four examples, in really trying to build a strong sense of culture. I think the strongest thing is, the type of people that we promote, and that we hire are people that once you connect them, there's a sense of connectivity very quickly. I did a motivational mapping survey with our leadership team. It appears that the traits of the people we hire are people that want to make a difference in the world. People who don't want to be micro managed. People who love change. People who, yes money's important and recognition but it's not their central driver.
Susan Credle: That was really fascinating. With a bunch of big players in the room.
Carter Murray: Hugely successful.
Susan Credle: Money and credit, were way down on the list. Versus [crosstalk 01:00:43].
Carter Murray: Important but not primary drivers. The primary driver was to really make a difference in what they do and to be independent people actually. Funny enough, when we come together, we recognize each other for who we are and there's a sense of community, which is really quite special. I would say that.
Susan Credle: I would say the other thing that's helped with global, having come in just a year anda few months ago. Carter was insistent in treating FCB like we would treat a brand. My belief is great ideas for brands start internally and then they manifest their way outside. I think it's never been more important to understand that than today when we see the truths of companies being exposed in social media when it contradicts their behavior outside of the company. Or if you're not walking it internally, you shouldn't be saying it externally. I think it's always been true, but it's never been more true than today.
We started with ourselves, like what do we want to be? I think language matters and we have some very tight language around certain things. Never finished is just sort of a point of view about the kind of people we want to bring in, the kind of brants we want to build, the kind of creative work we want to make, the kind of ideas we want to lean into. We also have a scale, and a lot of companies have them. It's not, oh this is an original idea, it's six points of view about how we look at work. I'm not going to go into them, because it's kind of like giving away your secrets, but I think there's six ways of thinking about the work that take your ego out of it and put discussion into making the work better.
Having that clarity on the kind of work we want to do and how we want to look at work as a unified network. It was key to get buy in from everybody in the C suites around the world. Is this helpful or is it not? It wasn't like, "You're going to do this because we're demanding it." Carter was really wise, basically the first part of last year, we spent the time showing beta, talking about it. Going to key players around the world saying, "Does this look like it would help? Is it going to handcuff you? Do you roll your eyes at it?" We got incredible buy in. Then we have some very simple language that we all share in common that makes us so much more efficient. Our conversations are super fast. If a client goes and has a conversation with anybody in the network, I think they're going to hear similar high, high bar goals for our work and for our people. I think that helps with a global network. Otherwise, it's just a lot of people that live under some kind of financial logo arrangement.
Charles: You guys have mentioned a number of times, what's the soundbite definition of never finish.
Carter Murray: Well I think I'll let Susan do the creative side. For me, never finish is a philosophy and a point of view, which I think speaks to like minded people. Which is, you are never finished learning, you're never finished growing, you're constantly improving. You're constantly getting better at what you do. Actually, to go back, enlightenment was built on that notion, and modernism, on always moving forward. I think never finished is that. Never finished is embracing change in a way where you can move forward in the right way. It speaks on a very personal level. I think from a business perspective, Susan articulates it best. Shall I do it or you do it? [crosstalk 01:04:22].
Susan Credle: You can do it.
Carter Murray: Well what I loved about never finish in terms of creative ideas is that people often think a billion dollar brand idea is born by this epiphany moment. Actually, often it starts with the kernel and the seed of an idea. It can be in an execution, it can be in a thought. It can be in many different places. You suddenly realize it can grow and there's another iteration of it and another iteration. It grows and it becomes larger than the original idea actually sometimes was. Or a distillation of the original idea. I think a never finished idea is one that can run and run and run. That's where clients get true value. That's where you get exponential returns. Instead of having, to Susan's point, a shooting star or an execution. I think that's the problem that occurred once with many campaigns, I feel like I shouldn't name it. There was one very famous beverage ad done during a break. Everyone kept trying to repeat it.
Actually what they never managed to do was articulate what the never finished idea was. Once you have that never finished idea, it just runs. I think that's what I love about working with Susan. Her articulation of big ideas. Instead of having this big idea and more this conversation about how to get to ideas. She's managed to articulate and put a philosophy and a scale together that talks in a very articulate fashion about what a true idea that can move a brand and a business is. That's one that's never finished.
Susan Credle: It's interesting because you would think that the reason I like this idea is because I think it's good for business, good for brands, good for companies. I actually think it's good for people, and I mean the people that are creating it. I looked back over my career when we were talking about what do we want to do? What do we want our company to do? I realized that the award winning work that I had done, that sat in a finite space, I couldn't even remember them, barely. The things that I'd built over time and even when I left an agency, that idea or the seeds of that idea were still there and someone else is working with them. You can say, "You know that thing? Yeah, we were a part of that. You know that thing? We were a part of that." That's been so much more rewarding.
I want everybody that's coming up to have that experience. To create something so big that even when you're finished, it's not. Even when you're out. I love the idea of what are you going to put into the world that you're going to take your grandchildren to see and tell them the story of the day you came up with it? Or the day that you sold it in? Or the day that you got it made? Can you dream that big? If you can dream that big, you're going to do amazing things. If you're dreaming very small, like I did an ad. I did something to bring a brief to life in this moment. Oh you're going to get to the end and you're going to think, "What did I do?" To me it's much bigger than good for business and brands. It's fulfillment of a job well played.
Charles: Really well put. Just as a final wrap thought. You guys have talked about a lot of different areas here today and you bring a lot of different skills and capabilities and pieces of humanity to it. The thing that strikes me above all else actually is the fifth thing on this list, which is, your commitment to each other, to what you're trying to build. To the people that work for you, to your clients. It's really palpable, the energy that you guys bring together is really, really present. I think it's such an important attribute for any partnership to have that kind of energy and that kind of commitment to each other.
Carter Murray: Thank you.
Charles: It's really striking. I want to thank you both. I know we've gone long. Thank you for throwing yourselves in so willingly and completely and being so candid and open. It's been really powerful.
Carter Murray: It's been fun. Cheers.
Susan Credle: All right, I'll see you on some part of [inaudible 01:08:22] Monday. Travel safe.
Charles: That wraps up this episode of Fearless. Join us next time as we delve further into the art and science of leading some of the world's most disruptive businesses and unlocking the power of creativity to change ourselves and the world. Thanks for joining us.