Fearless - Ep. 39: "The Reputation Builder" - Kerrie Finch

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"The Reputation Builder"

Kerrie Finch is the Founder & CEO of FinchFactor - one of the most successful reputation management companies within the creative, tech innovator and startup sectors, with offices in Amsterdam, London, Los Angeles and New York.  Kerrie is the founder of SheSays Amsterdam and an ADCN board member. She's also incredibly warm and genuine. I talked to Kerrie at Eurobest in London.


Three Takeaways

  • Be in service of other people
  • Define a purpose
  • Have the courage to overcome your own uncertainties and insecurities

"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT

Episode 39: "The Reputation Builder" Kerrie Finch

Charles:                               

Hello. You're listening to Fearless, where we explore the art and science of leading creativity, that unpredictable, amorphous and invaluable resource that's critical to every modern business. Each week we talk to leaders who are jumping into the fire, crossing the chasm, and blowing up the status quo. Leaders who've mastered the art of turning the impossible into the profitable. This episode was recorded in the London, at the Eurobest Festival, which is now in it's 30th year, highlighting, celebrating and rewarding the best of European creativity. Visit Eurobest.com for more information.

Today, I'm talking to Kerrie Finch, founder and CEO of The FinchFactor, one of the most successful reputation management companies within the creative tech, innovator and startup sectors. The company has offices in Amsterdam, London, Los Angeles and New York. Kerrie is also the founder of SheSays Amsterdam, and an ADCN board member.

Kerrie thank you for joining me on Fearless today. It's great to have you here.

Kerrie Finch:                      

It's a pleasure to be under the stairs with you.

Charles:                               

We are once again under the stairs here at Eurobest. My first question, which I know you don't know is coming. When did creativity first effect you? What's your first memory of creativity showing up in your life? I mean all the way back in your childhood even.

Kerrie Finch:                      

God dammit, I don't know. I don't come from a creative family as it were. I come from a very working class family. Creativity was not important. I think the very first thing I can remember as a solid memory is I've always loved theater and the arts and musicals actually. My first job when I went to university, you know, like a student job, was working in a theater. It was in Manchester.

Charles:                               

Doing what?

Kerrie Finch:                      

Well it was Manchester at the Royal Exchange, and it's theater in the round, and you need door openers for the actors to be, for the prompts to go in and out, go in and out of the theater. I loved it, but I loved being behind the scenes. I've never wanted to be on stage. I loved being behind the scenes and, my first love I think in that sense, yes okay I was 18, 19, I'm sure creativity hit me earlier than that, but that's one defining moment when I absolutely knew that I loved doing something, and being around creative people, and watching the process from behind the scenes. I loved that outsider perspective actually.

Charles:                               

What were you drawn to at school?

Kerrie Finch:                      

At school, it was very much English. I was a bit of the joker in the class. It was English. I was rubbish at sciences and maths and languages. It was very much writing and English language and literature. I love reading. I'm a big reader. So, at school it was that. Also, at school I was good at sports, but that didn't continue into my teenage years particularly. In the sense of sports I'm not competitive enough. You know, like if you go bowling these days for fun and a beer I'm brilliant, I'm absolutely ace the first round, and then I'm over it, I'm done, I don't care anymore who wins. So sports, I wasn't particularly competitive enough, but it's always been language, in terms of the English language and literature.

Charles:                               

What do you read?

Kerrie Finch:                      

I'll read anything. I actually at the moment I'm into ... I dunno what you'd call it, but like Margaret Atwood, but when she goes into the sci-fi. So, fort example, The Handmaid's Tale and the remake for TV, that kind of sci-fi I'm fascinated by. The world that, you know, almost there but for the grace of God: Is it coming to us or is it not? Doom, the future Doom, and parallel universes in that sense. That fascinates me.

Charles:                               

Sort of, "what if?"

Kerrie Finch:                      

Yeah, "what if?", like alternative histories, those kind of books. I can't remember the name of it, but I read a book about Hitler, almost like a parallel Hitler Universe.

Charles:                               

Oh, The Man in the High Tower?

Kerrie Finch:                      

No.

Charles:                               

Or similar?

Kerrie Finch:                      

But what's that one?

Charles:                               

Similar. What would have happened if Germany had won the Second World War?

Kerrie Finch:                      

Yeah. No, this was more ... I can't remember. It's worthless talking about it as I can't remember the title of the book. Those kind of parallel universes I find fascinating.

Charles:                               

What was your first job coming out of university?

Kerrie Finch:                      

At university, I worked in a theater. So, I went to university in Manchester and studied English and American Studies, and that's when I also got into film as well. I really wanted to get into film at one point. My first proper job was working at the Contact Theater in Manchester in the PR department.

Charles:                               

Oh, so PR came early to your life?

Kerrie Finch:                      

Yeah, it came really early by pure chance. I don't know why. I think it was because I worked in theater companies, and I knew people in that world, and I worked with festivals and I volunteered in Manchester to work with festivals for example. I just like being in that environment. I worked at the West Yorkshire Playhouse in Leeds. I still consider Kate [Crow], who was the head of the PR department there at the West Yorkshire Playhouse, was what I remember, what I consider to be a true mentor. She was my first mentor I believe, and she's still friends now. I think she works at ... well she won a Bafta for production and being a producer basically. She was a fantastic role model for me.

Charles:                               

So, you liked PR early on?

Kerrie Finch:                      

I loved it and hated it because ... yeah that's a good question. I like telling a story, and I like getting people passionate about things I'm passionate about, but I actually tried to get out of PR. It's why I ended up in Amsterdam actually because I thought it was really siloed, and really limited, and too corporate a world. If you move from the arts and entertainment world, which has no money into what was then the tech, and the consumer tech bubble bursting and growing, all the jobs were in consumer tech so I kind of went and had a look at that, put my feet in the water, see what that's like, hated it. I was in London and working at PR companies, and just found them too corporate, too shallow, too siloed. Advertising is not talking to marketing, is not talking to thought leadership, is not talking to media, is not talking to PR, and I just hated it. I just didn't understand what that was all about. I didn't want to work like that.

So, actually, when I moved to Amsterdam was in 2000. I was moving away because I just wanted to go do something else with my life and loved living abroad. I moved to Amsterdam, not because I then actually happened to get a job in PR, but it was because the experience of being a second-class citizen, and living abroad and being an outsider was really fantastic to me. I found that such a learning curve. From there I developed my own way into what marketing communications is and what I wanted it to be. I ended up at Wieden+Kennedy as their head of PR in Amsterdam, which was fantastic and brilliant, and that's where I really got into the creative industry. From there in 2009 I set up FinchFactor because I was passionate about a real true blend of what marketing communications, PR, advertising, tech innovation, design innovation. What we do a FinchFactor, we really blend it and we look at all those aspects. We're fascinated by that cross-collaboration and that mash-up, whatever you wanna call it. That's what gets me excited actually is people thinking big and people having passion about what they do for a living.

Charles:                               

So, did you have a vision for what you thought PR -

Kerrie Finch:                      

No.

Charles:                               

This was, you were following instinct again, saying, "I don't want it to be that. I don't wanna do it here."

Kerrie Finch:                      

Not that I have an empire, but I never wanted to build an empire. I didn't have a business plan, and it's like, "Okay, so, within three years we'll have sold, and it'll be this big, and this many people and these kind of clients." Whatever I've done in my career has been entirely organic. The way that we have opened offices in Los Angeles and New York and London has been client driven, it's been entirely organic. There's been no master plan, and I'm sure we'd be much bigger, better, bolder perhaps if we had a master plan. I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm a business owner, but I don't have any business [inaudible]. We've never borrowed money. We've always been in the black, and we've always grown year on year. So, something is going right, but it's very organic, it's very instinctive. I never went to, "Hey! Let's run FinchFactor school." It's incredible instinctive, they way I've worked.

Charles:                               

How did you find out you are and entrepreneur?

Kerrie Finch:                      

I'd fought that word for ages because I thought it was too big for me. I thought, "Oh no, I don't deserve that." I had that like many people and too many women have that, "I'm not good enough," syndrome.

Charles:                               

How did you overcome that?

Kerrie Finch:                      

I'm not sure that I particularly have. I just march through it I think, but when did I think about being, why ...I took ownership if the word entrepreneur probably only about five years ago when I realized, I looked around and I thought to myself, "I'm no better of worse than anybody else who is also running their own business." We are successful. We have grown year on year. We've never borrowed money. It's all been very positive in a business sense. [00:10:30] My brother runs his own company. He's never had a job. Let's put it another way, he's never been employed. He's had a job but he runs his own company, and my dad grew up, literally actually grew up in the slums of the East End. He left school when, whatever they could at those days, 13 I think he bunked of and that was that, but he's a self taught man. Taught himself french polishing and restoration of antique furniture and he became an antiques dealer eventually. Think Steptoe and Son, not David Dickinson. There's certain scales to antique dealing let's put it that way. You know, and I suddenly thought my dad is a business owner, start looking around and realizing that's a really positive thing and it's clearly in my blood.

Charles:                               

Was there a moment that you kind of realized, "I'm gonna do this," or did this just dawn on you over a period of time?

Kerrie Finch:                      

To work?

Charles:                               

To start your own business.

Kerrie Finch:                      

I've never liked being employed. I think I've always ... There's a Woody Allen scene in one of his movies where Diane Keaton is like, she's standing like, "Open a window! Open a window! I'm suffocating! Open a window!" That's how I feel when I've been employed. I feel like I have to self-sabotage to make them fire me, or I have to leave. So, the very first job I ever had I was there for 18 months. Up until I worked at Wieden+Kennedy for four years I'd never worked anywhere longer than 12 to 18 months. I had to keep moving. It's just in my nature. I wanted to keep moving. There's something else out there. What's round the corner? What can I eat up? I think I was hungry to learn and just experience other stuff. Maybe part of that was no staying power, may be part of that was just instinctive. I just want to know what's out there and learn.

Whatever the route it's taken me to where I am today, and I think ... when I look at people and we, I look at who we employ I never look at their CV. I don't want to know their CV, I want to have a conversation with them. I don't care where they've been to school. I don't care what they studied, and you know, "oh, they really love cooking and reading." I want to know what they've done and what's in their head and what they want to do. I'd rather have that conversation with them. I really hate, "Who's this CV?" I'm like, "Just don't. Save the paper. Don't print that out for me. I really don't need it."

Charles:                               

What have you discovered about the people that you tend to be drawn to and the people that you tend to hire that are successful? What are the experiences? What are the feelings that they bring to the table that ...

Kerrie Finch:                      

At FinchFactor, there's now 25 of us across four offices, and I think there's 12 nationalities, and that's hugely important to me. I don't care which office yous it in, I want to know that you've got a broad perspective on the world, and, I want to know that ... you know it's not about speaking, "Hey, can you speak German? We need a German speaker." It's about having an international mindset and having a cross-borders mindset. It's huge to how I operate and how I think. I think everybody should be made to live abroad for at least a year. I think countries should bring back national service, and that national service should be they're sent abroad for a year to work for a company because it's hugely enlightening. I went to Amsterdam for three months, for a three month work contract. I've been there now 17 years. That experience of being an outsider, and looking in, and you're always a second class citizen in, doesn't matter what nationality you are going into which country, you're an outsider, you're not of that land. I think that's a massive learning opportunity, and so I love that.

I like people on the team who have come from slightly different, not parallel universes but slightly different companies or organizations, so you don't have to, "Oh, I've worked at PR in a PR agency." Actually we don't want those people. We want people who've worked with a product design company and they've been working the world of jewelry or we want people that've lived in three different countries and they're coming to us and they've really passionate about movie making or something. We want people who are, who understand the world of creativity in it's broadest mindset, if that makes sense?

Charles:                               

No, it makes complete sense, and, given that you didn't have a business plan per se, did you have a -

Kerrie Finch:                      

Shh. Don't tell anybody.

Charles:                               

But did you have a strong instinct or sense or idea about the kind of company that you wanted to build, like the way it would behave and they way it would show up?

Kerrie Finch:                      

Me personally, I really believe in a world that's empowered by equality and diversity in leadership. I'm passionate about that as a human being. I want people that I work with the be passionate about that. Equally, I want our clients to be passionate about that, and so that helps drive who, what, why FinchFactor is. It helps drive our purpose and our mission and our vision. We want to help brands and agencies who are focused on the creative world, on tech innovation. We wanna work with category disruptors, through the power of thought leadership, and always part of the basic foundation is how can we help diversity and equality? How can we help this company properly represent?

We're in a really fortunate position at FinchFactor in that I would say 85 percent of our clients have knocked on our door and they've come to us through recommendation. That's a really unusual position to be in, and it's really great because as a reputation management company I guess we're doing something right, you know, big thumbs up. What we need to do is make sure we're working with the right companies. We need to be as selective about whether they come to us or we're chasing them. We've gotta be really selective about the clients we work with, and also the way they treat our team, the way they treat their own team. The whole point of FinchFactor is the help clients find their voice, use their voice, so they articulate their themes and narratives so it helps them build their brand, build their business. We'll do that through all sorts of different routes; Thought leadership, we're here at Eurobest now, through appearing in editorial, through newsjacking. To us it's all part of the same cake, slice it how you will, together we're stronger. All those three seams, all work together to build a bigger picture.

Charles:                               

Yeah.

Kerrie Finch:                      

I dunno if that made any sense?

Charles:                               

Yeah. No, I think it makes a great deal of sense, and it seems to me like a particularly modern, progressive way of doing it. What are the characteristics of the clients that you want to work with? How do they show up to you? Or how do they show up in the world?

Kerrie Finch:                      

That's a brilliant question. How do they show up in the world? So, we've got a really diverse range of clients. They're all from the creative industry or tech innovators, or category disruptors. We've worked with direct with Jonathan Mildenhall for Airbnb. We work with them on their creative agenda and their diversity agenda, and that's a fantastic example of how we work with our clients actually. We always wanna work in partnership with them, to help them achieve their goals so that they are standing up and being counted in the right way. Someone like Jonathan Mildenhall is a fantastic leader, a fantastic visionary actually for the marketing communications industry. He works in a brilliant way. Working with Airbnb we're very much working towards a shared goal actually. They have criteria, they have hoops that we have to jump through as a partner. They want to work with companies who support diversity, who are seen to support the best and are actually supporting diversity. That chimes really strongly with us, and that was a massive talking point when we first started working with Airbnb. What does FinchFactor do? How do we show up in the world? It's almost like, "Oh hello. That wasn't quite the interview I was expecting. Yes, Okay."

Equally, we're helping Airbnb be seen to show up in the world in the way that it should be, we're all about authenticity. We're very strong on authenticity because as human beings we can sniff out the bullshit about any brand. We'll know when a brand is being inauthentic and it's awful when we suddenly discover that a brand has been inauthentic. It's like a partner lying to you in some way because we get passionate about the brands that we see, live and breath every day. So, working with somebody like Airbnb is fantastic because they sand by what they believe in and they have a mission and we can help them achieve that in all sorts of different ways.

Another client might be somebody like MediaMonks who we've worked with since they were one office, and I think they're our oldest client actually, and they're hugely passionate about what they do. I remember Victor Knaap coming to me in the first meeting saying, "We wanna be the biggest digital production company on the planet," and I laughed, and now look at them. We've helped them achieve that, and that's a fantastic journey to be on. That's why actually we're in Los Angeles. They wanted us near them, to help them grow their US operation. They believe in the power of reputation management and that's a fantastic partnership to have with client. I think we've partnered up with them for about seven, eight years now. Well as old as FinchFactor so since 2009. I should do some maths at some point. That's amazing. They are incredibly good at pushing the button in terms of digital technology, digital production, [00:21:30] and Wesley ter Haar who now sits in LA, the founder, is, you know I don't say it lightly. He's an absolute genius in his industry, and a very quiet, a very beardy genius, and that's perfect for us. We wanna help those people shine. We wanna help those people achieve their goals, and we can do that. We've got a lot of experience in doing that. We're the power behind that throne, I don't need to sit in the throne, I like being the power behind the throne.

Charles:                               

So, you just described the FinchFactor in a way that makes me think of it as a very values driven company. You've got some very strong senses about ... more than that, beliefs about how you wanna show up and the kind of clients you want to have. How do you cope with the day to day reality of business when clients, to your point, suddenly reveal themselves to not be that authentic.

Kerrie Finch:                      

It's really hard.

Charles:                               

How do you reconcile those two?

Kerrie Finch:                      

It's really hard. So, we've got an experience at the moment with a particular client who is just treating us incredibly badly and that contract will be ending because it's soul destroying to team if they're just not being respected. There's a different between a challenging client who you might argue with, but you know the relationship is rock solid and you're both pushing toward a joint goal, and you'll get there, and there's give and take, and there's demands, and you rise tho the challenge. That's different from just being treated like shit and the team being disrespected, and we can't have it. I can't have it. It's soul destroying to the team. It's all blood, sweat and tears. We don't work with people who don't give anything but a hundred percent when they show up at work. They really come fully armed. They come to give a hundred percent. We have high expectations at FinchFactor, and our clients have high expectations, and our team ... there are high expectations therefore of the team from all directions, but if a client is just being disrespectful, not listening, you can't continue like that. The money isn't worth it, it's just not worth it.

Charles:                               

What have you learned owning a business that has surprised you, that is different than you thought it would be when you got into it?

Kerrie Finch:                      

If you run your own business you've got more freedom because you keep your own hours and you've got so much freedom, and you've got so much choice, and that's really great. That's such utter bullshit. I'm more tied down than I've ever been in my entire life but I think that's me putting responsibility on my own shoulders. I'm sure it's different if I had a business partner. Are you free? Are you available? So, but I think that's the difference, as a business owner and I don't have any business partners, ultimately the weight of the Fincheys in the nest, needing to get fed every month. Ultimately that's on, who's that on? Oh, that's on me. That's on my shoulders, is that on my shoulders? Yeah. That's on my shoulders. The idea of freedom is quite interesting but I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't want to do it because anybody can step away at any point, nobody is tied to anything, so that really surprises me.

Charles:                               

Somebody once described freedom to me actually as disposable time, which I thought was a brilliant expression.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Exactly, and I love ... You see when I was younger I wanted to get ... If they wouldn't give me a pay rise, which, frequently and most of the time didn't happen, I wanted more holiday. I wanted holiday, and so we give our team quite a lot of holiday because that was vital for me. People work really hard, and they work long hours, and because we work across time zones they work, yeah, there's a lot of demands on their hours. So, I'm up for that. I'm happy to pay people in more free time. That's what I dream of. I wanna two day week, where actually on all the other days I'm actually not thinking about the company. I know that's impossible because I won't ever let it go because it is my baby, but I'm learning. I need to learn to let go.

Charles:                               

It's a good ambition. You've seen companies and leaders up close and in very intimate circumstances right. Are there characteristics and practices you think the best companies share? Do you think the best leaders show up in certain ways? Are there attributes that they tend to bring that you think make them exceptional?

Kerrie Finch:                      

God, that's such a hard question for me to answer. It's a really interesting question. I think the best people take their teams with them and empower their teams. You see it in certain companies all the time and you know when it's happening. There are certain clients, naming no names, where their own teams work incredibly hard and they maybe don't get paid the best in the industry, and they're incredibly loyal and they will stay and they will work and they will go the extra 17 miles, and I think that's about ... People know when people are visionaries and people know when people are authentic. People want to be heard. People want to be respected, and people want to feel that they have their own part to play. They want to be involved, and I think the best leaders make that happen. The best leaders make that happen, and that's a massive learning curve for me. As somebody who needs to learn to let go more, and somebody who needs to learn to step away more probably, take more time off, things like that, that's really interesting, empowering your teams is brilliant.

Charles:                               

Yeah, Susan Credle at FCB Global talks about actually the, what she's describes as the five day test.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Which is?

Charles:                               

Which is, if you can't walk away from your own business for five days, you're not leading very effectively because -

Kerrie Finch:                      

Yeah, and that's absolutely right. Next year 2018 I'm gonna be taking a sabbatical.

Charles:                               

Are you really? From your own company? That's a brilliant idea

Kerrie Finch:                      

Yeah, they don't know it yet.

Charles:                               

Well they will now.

Kerrie Finch:                      

News flash, "Fincheys, by they way ..." No, but I'm going to be taking a sabbatical and that is because I now have an advisory board in place, and I now have, FinchFactor is very much, "we," I never talk about it as, "I," because it's my name above the door but I can't do it on my own. It's not all about me, it's about the team. It has to be about the team. You're absolutely right, you have to be able to walk away. Could I do that five years ago? No, absolutely not, was constantly on my phone, constantly on email, constantly checking in, appalling, but over the years you do learn to be able to delegate. If you can't delegate then you're fucked, frankly aren't you.

Charles:                               

And have you led towards this moment? Was this an ambition that you had, to get to the point where you could take a sabbatical?

Kerrie Finch:                      

Yeah, in a perfect world I was thinking ... you know, I never had a business plan, and I never had a global empire vision, but what I did want was to be able to, the business runs by itself and I can take proper vacations. I want to travel, and I want to -

Charles:                               

Not for work?

Kerrie Finch:                      

No, but also for work. I love traveling for work.

Charles:                               

Oh right.

Kerrie Finch:                       T

hat's also fine, but it was interesting what you said about, "What was you business plan?" I don't think I had one but what I do have is that nowadays travel for work and pleasure, and be able to step away, be able to delegate, not be constantly involved, have the company work for itself. I've got a manager, a managing director for Europe, and managing director for the US, got an operations officer, chief operations officer. So, all of that, it's only been in place since 2017, because of that, that is actually there to support me as well as it is to support the rest of the team, and it does mean that I feel safe now, whereas a year ago I didn't feel safe I think.

Charles:                               

What would people be surprised to find out about you, that they don't already know.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Oh, I'm horribly insecure. I mean they probably know it. They probably see it. It probably shines through. We were talking about earlier I love being a moderator and a host on panels. I can host conferences for a 1000 people. I can host panels in front of 500 people. I love all of that, I have no problems with it. I get nervous, yes, but it doesn't concern me, but the idea of being onstage and speaking on my own I find incredibly difficult. I find that a real challenge, "What, you're looking at me?" It's a really daunting concept.

Charles:                               

What makes you nervous about that?

Kerrie Finch:                      

I think I still struggle with the imposter syndrome, that, "What do I know? Who am I to say?" I didn't go to, let's set up FinchFactor school. I didn't go to business school, I didn't study reputation management at university. Everything I've done is incredibly organic and learned on the job, really learned on the job, and I think I suffer somewhat from imposter syndrome, yeah.

Charles:                               

Is that your biggest fear? Or, is there something else that -

Kerrie Finch:                      

I don't wanna trip over and look stupid. What is my biggest fear? I think it does come down to that, it's that, "I'm not good enough" feeling, which too many people in this world and too many women actually still deal with, and I'm perfectly honest about ... I have that as much as anybody else might have that. Maybe it's acceptance, maybe it's about ... yeah, I think it's the impostor syndrome. Also, if you heard my talk earlier today I said that I have commitment issues in all aspects of my life, that's why I can't get a tattoo because I can't ... The idea of wearing something for the rest of my life, having chosen it myself just makes me want to die. So, maybe it's the idea of commitment, the commitment issues. If I'm going on stage and saying something then clearly people think I mean it and maybe I don't. Maybe I only mean it for that day. I think there's some of that going on as well.

Charles:                               

And evidence to the successful company you built across how many countries now, is FinchFactor in?

Kerrie Finch:                      

We have offices in Los Angeles, New York, London and Amsterdam so currently we have 25 people.

Charles:                               

Sounds like a commitment to me.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Maybe I have a fear of commitment in so many ways and yet, yes, of course I'm committed to my team, I'm committed to FinchFactor, I'm committed to all the clients, you can't get much tied in than that, but the idea of a tattoo and the permanence aspect of having a tattoo on my body is ... I love tattoos, love them, that's why I just did a panel with Henry Hate and all the other experts, but the idea of getting a tattoo, "What, I've chosen this?" I know I won't want it in five hours time. I'll immediately regret it, so ...

Charles:                               

So in stark contrast to Laura Jordan Bambach actually.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Oh I love Laura's tattoos but she gets a tattoo, her tattoos come from ...

Charles:                               

From her son.

Kerrie Finch:

From her son.

Charles:                               

Yeah.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Yeah, I love that. That if she goes away for more than, I think it's five days, he gets to put a tattoo on her.

Charles:                               

Yeah, she was saying yesterday, it's changed their relationship because he now believes that she is as invested in the two of them as he wants her to be.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Which is incredible.

Charles:                               

Amazing right?

Kerrie Finch:                      

Absolutely incredible way of looking, you know, fantastic way of parenting, and a fantastically creative way of dealing with an issue. I think it's brilliant.

Charles:                               

It really is. I wrap every episode with three takeaways that I've heard. Let me try these on for you. One is, I'm struck by the fact, and you've said this a couple of different ways, that you are happy to be, and like to be in the service of other people, that bringing out the best in other people is clearly something that's natural and instinctive to you. Two is, I think despite some of your suggestions, it seems to me that you are actually extremely intentioned, and perhaps this has become truer later for you, but it seems clear now that you are acting with purpose towards specific outcomes, that are not just to the benefit of your clients or your company, but actually have personal benefit, which I think is incredibly healthy and important. Leaders that don't take themselves seriously I think struggle. I think third is, simply put, You've had the courage to overcome what you've described as your own uncertainties and your own insecurities, and again, I think, most people are not as willing to be as open and revealing about that fact as you have been today, and I thank you for that, but I think having the courage to say, "Maybe I'm not good enough, but I'm gonna try anyway," takes us to surprisingly great places, almost every time.

Kerrie Finch:                      

I think that, thank you for that summary, that was super insightful of you. The older I've become I think the more I've allowed the insecurities to actually be a strength if that makes any sense?

Charles:                               

Sure.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Because I've realized that actually it's exactly what you just said. It's almost like, feel the fear but do it anyway, and actually everybody is vulnerable in some way and I don't think it hurts a team to know that the person in charge of the business also is vulnerable, let's do it together, let's ask questions. That's something that I wouldn't have done 15 years ago. I wouldn't have been like that. I think I would have been much moire bull-headed about the world, and now I think that it's okay to show that you're not perfect.

Charles:                               

Yeah, I think that's well put. I think as we get older, we're more interested in finding out what we can do rather than all the things we can't do, don't we?

Kerrie Finch:                      

Yeah.

Charles:                               

Yeah, that's good. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure getting to know you a little bit.

Kerrie Finch:                      

Thank you so much. Thank you for letting me sit under the stairs with you.

Charles:                               

Thank you for joining me here.

You've been listening to Fearless from Eurobest. If you like what you've heard, please take a moment and rate the podcast on iTunes, it makes a big difference, and check out more of the Eurobest content at Eurobest.com. Thanks for listening.