“The Listening Leader”
Carter Murray is the global CEO of FCB. He is 6’7” and shows up larger than that. In his own words, he lives on the front foot, charging forward. But the truth is more complex.
When he took the job 7 years ago, the agency was named DraftFCB and was seen by most observers as a turnaround. Others wondered if the world needed FCB anymore.
But some people had a different view. The people that still worked there.
Three Takeaways
A willingness to be vulnerable.
Balance your instincts with evidence.
Make decisions. And be willing to change them when necessary.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 113: "The Listening Leader" - Carter Murray
I’m Charles Day. I work globally with some of the most creative and innovative companies, helping their leaders maximize their impact and accelerate the growth of their business.
It’s become clear to me that the most valuable companies in the world are led by people who have something in common. They've learned how to unlock the most powerful business forces in the world - creativity and innovation.
On this podcast, I explore how they do it and I'll help you use their experiences to become a better leader, and become that leader faster.
Carter Murray is the global CEO of FCB. He is 6’7” and shows up larger than that. In his own words, he lives on the front foot, charging forward.
But the truth is more complex.
When he took the job 7 years ago, the agency was named DraftFCB and was seen by most observers as a turnaround. Others wondered if the world needed FCB anymore.
But some people had a different view. The people that still worked there.
This episode is called “The Listening Leader”.
“Very often, in large companies, or established companies, or long, long existing companies, there are a core group of people that stick with it, that are under-appreciated, undervalued, and no one says thank you enough. So, I think one of the key things coming in here, was to try and listen and engage the people that had worked here for 20 years and 30 years and stuck with it. And I think a big misconception when times are hard is all the good people leave and all the bad people stay. I don't think that's true. I think there are some really amazing people that stick with the company through thick and through thin.”
I sometimes get hired by companies that are struggling. Who need to bring in new ways of thinking about themselves, or work together more effectively.
No matter how those companies are seen from the outside, no matter how far they’ve fallen, what always becomes obvious, every single time, is how much talent is locked inside. And always, I’m left with the feeling that if I can help let the light shine in on those people, then extraordinary things can happen.
Someone said to me last week that the best companies always have the best talent. In my experience, that’s not always true.
What is always true, is that the best companies use talent best. And that includes listening to them.
Some of the best talent in the world are today, sitting inside companies who are struggling and in some cases dying.
If you’re going to be the leader who unlocks them, the first thing you’ll want to do is listen to them. They know a lot about what’s not working and why.
As you listen to this conversation, I think you’ll hear that it’s a case study in how to lead a turnaround.
It’s also a very good example that no matter how they show up, the best leaders are listening a lot more than most people think.
Here's Carter Murray.
Charles: (03:01)
Welcome to Fearless. Thanks for coming back on the show, because in fact you were on episode six.
Carter Murray:
I was. With Susan.
Charles:
With Susan, that's right.
Carter Murray:
I thoroughly enjoyed it, yeah.
Charles:
Because I asked you my normal question then, I actually want to start a different way. Where did you grow up?
Carter Murray:
I grew up, oddly, in a suitcase. So, I started my life in Belgium for a few years, and then went to a very strict English boarding school with my parents living between the Bahamas and England. and spending a lot of my time traveling in Europe. My mother was German, and she wanted to make sure that whilst I never lived there, I felt tied to the mainland and not too British. So grew up in several places.
Charles:
What nationality do you think of yourself as?
Carter Murray:
That's a really good question. I don't, really. I mean, I associate, because of, of school and probably my accent, my upbringing as being English, but I'm not, really. I mean, between my, my two stepparents who've been my stepparents for 30 years and my parents between them, I'm French, English, Scottish, German, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, and Atheist. I grew up in the Bahamas, my wife's from Nicaragua. I went to college in the States. So I'm a true stray dog.
Charles:
(laughs).
Carter Murray:
So, from a very young age, I sort of felt, you know, I'm sort of who I ... Carter is my personality. And from all those different places mixed in, I never really had this strong nationalistic association, which sounds really high brow and pompous, and it does. I don't mean it to be.
Charles:
Mm-mm (negative).
Carter Murray:
I just don't associate with any specific country. I associate with, actually, all the ones I mentioned.
Charles:
So did you adapt easily? I mean, was that something was innate to you? Or did you have to learn how to adapt?
Carter Murray:
I was always quite loud. And I always loved people. And so, I always found it quite easy to adapt. I suppose at eight going from that sort of very open culture to sort of a very closed, authoritarian one, away from family, was definitely an adjustment. And I think, but I think when you go to boarding school at the age of eight, you learn to be very independent from a very young age.
Charles:
Were you a risk taker growing up?
Carter Murray: (5:07)
Oh, gosh. I don't know if I was a risk taker. I think I had this very, very hardwired belief in what's right and what's wrong. And I think that might have been because I saw bullying at boarding school when I was eight, and it just bothered me profoundly. And I think when I showed up, commonly the theme going back to boarding school, but when I was eight, having 13 year old boys demand respect, not having it earned, and then going to public school and having people expect me to respect them, because of their position, not because of who they are. And seeing the abuse of that. I think, I've always felt very hardwired, about that particular angle on things.
Charles:
And you're tall, right? I mean, you're, you're, you have a,
Carter Murray:
Yeah.
Charles:
... a presence when you walk in.
Carter Murray:
I mean, part, part of the challenge I think I've always had is I'm normally sort of very front-footed, very energized, very, um ... And someone said to me once, you know, Carter, you suck the oxygen out of a room. Uh, and so, you know, my whole life, I've also had to try and temper that in, in order to connect with people in the right way. And I've always had the feedback, you know, you've got to listen more.
Charles:
So you feel like you can overwhelm them if you're not careful?
Carter Murray:
Well, I think that's the feedback most people who've-
Charles:
(laughs).
Carter Murray:
... met me will say, yeah. I mean, you know, six foot seven, loud person walking in a room can be a little bit overwhelming. I think now with position, you know, I think I've become, as I've gotten a little older, a lot more conscious of that, you know?
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carter Murray:
I think, having this global CEO title is a much bigger responsibility than I think one realizes going up through the ranks, in terms of what it feels like to be in the job. But also on impact.
Charles:
Hm.
Carter Murray:
So, you know, I started in Chicago and all my friends and family, I always hug them hello, and close friends, and I have one of my people said, "You know, Carter, you have to be conscious that, you can't do that anymore. you know, a six foot seven global CEO goes up to somebody and goes, 'How are you?' and gives them a big ... It can be incredibly intimidating. And so I think that self consciousness of, of understanding myself as an individual and the position has been a really interesting journey of, of sort of awareness and discovery. And it's a little embarrassing to think I've been in the job for six years and I'm still learning so much every day about the job, myself, people, and what I do.
Charles:
Yeah, I want to come back to that because I think it's such a powerful and interesting reference point. You became part of your parents' business very, very early on, right? And they, they had a-
Carter Murray:
I mean, my mother and stepfather are one of the top developers in London, probably in the world, for high end real estate. And my stepfather fell sick and went into a hospital right after I finished Duke. And I showed up one morning, and I had to take over the building site of 100 people. And it was interesting, because you had very sort of, I would say, sophisticated and high end architects, and sort of a management team. But then also I had to manage and work with the builders on the site. You know, some of them were out of prison laborers. And here was the son of the developer showing up. It was an interesting experience.
Charles:
Were you intimidated in that moment?
Carter Murray:
You know, it's a really weird thing. And I don't know why. I've never felt intimidated by those types of situations. I felt excited by them. And I've always had this sort of inner need, I think, to prove things to myself as much as to others, actually. And having grown up in the business, I wanted to do it. I wanted to show my parents I could be there for them, for my stepfather when he was unwell. And I wanted to prove to my parents that I could do things my way. Ultimately, I think the reason I went into advertising is they did what they did so well, I didn't want to be known as the son of-
Charles:
Hm.
Carter Murray:
... anyone. I wanted to carve my own path and show that I, you know, with all the privilege, with all the love, with all the education, with so m-, you know, I'm overly, over privileged. I wanted to show that I could go do it on my own. And I think going and starting at the very bottom of the ladder as an assistant account executive at an ad agency in another country where I didn't really know people, anyone in the industry, and see would I survive? Would I do well? Any success would be my success. And then I could lead the life I wanted to lead with my parents advising and guiding me, but not constantly being in their shadow.
And you know, I think one of the great, great things that I'm really truly grateful for is that before my mother and father died two or three years ago, that they were able to see that I managed to have some success in advertising and carve my own path, and get married, and have the kids. Unfortunately, they didn't get to see the third child. But-
Charles:
Hm.
Carter Murray:
... um, but, yeah, it's something I'm proud of. But again, I'm still very conscious and aware. You know, I often say, "If I couldn't have been successful with all the privilege that I had, I must have been a real fuck up." (laughs).
Charles:
(laughs).
Carter Murray:
The people I really admire, some of the clients I wo-, one of my favorite clients was in the East German Army when the Berlin, Wall came down. And really, literally crossed the wall and started his career. Another one of my dear friends and clients from early on, was in Lebanon, in the Red Army, holding peoples' children's heads together in the Civil War, and living through that and coming out the other side. Like those are the people that I really admire for how they got through adversity and succeeded.
I've seen more of the success that I've had as being really an output of parents and privilege, which is why it's really important to me, that whole purposeful thing about trying to give back and trying to make other people successful, is so particularly important for me.
Charles: (10:15)
When you made the switch, and the decision to start your own career path, did you have any sense of what success was, would look like to you? Did you, did you say, "I want to end up running a, a global agency?"
Carter Murray:
It's really a great question. I was never one of those people going, I want to run everything. I'm going to annihilate everyone in my path to be successful." I just, I loved what I did. And I sort of had this approach very early on from friendship, to school, to everything, which is be all in, go above and beyond, and I will crush this job because I love it, and I will do well, and an opportunity will take care of itself. And if the company doesn't take care of me, someone else will. And that's pretty much happened through my career.
So there was one point when I was at Leo Burnett in Chicago, and I was an assistant account exec, I would go out to lunch with this French German friend and moan a bit. And my German fried, Eric Berner, after about five lunches of me on a tear moaning about management, which, you know, is, when you're in the troops, it's very easy to moan about management, and often with cause. And he said, "Ya. Carter, stop bitching and moaning and either be part of the change and go change it and go run a company and change it or shut the fuck up."
Charles:
(laughs).
Carter Murray:
Excuse my French again. and I remember taking it a bit to heart, going, "You know what? Either, you know, put up or shut up." And I remember that at point becoming more ambitious about it. You know, consciously being like, thinking, "Can I do it better? And is there a better way of doing it? And is there a different way of doing it?" Again, my issue with old fashioned leadership and authority was demanding respect, not earning it. And I looked at that from, I hadn't actually thought about it.
This is good therapy, Charles. From school, I think that carried across to the business world. I always had a problem with authority, because I always thought authority in the business world was dictatorial and not earned. And I thought you could do it where it's actually more about collaborative leadership than authoritarian leadership. And that didn't mean less performance, it can actually mean better performance, and it can actually mean happier people. And it could actually mean more purposeful leadership. I don't think I have ever articulated it quite that way, but I think that's an interesting parallel.
Charles:
When you describe, when you talk about collaborative leadership, what does that mean to you?
Carter Murray:
Well, I think the best way I can describe it is last year, I think we were one of the top three creative agencies in the world. But we weren't there six years ago, a long way from that. People were asking if we're still going to be in business. I mean, now, we can say that, now that we're doing well. And when I was recruiting people, I would go for the very, very, very best people.
But the way I would talk to them or recruit them was something that was heartfelt, which was, I would look someone in the eye, who I really, genuinely thought was one of the top one or two percent, and I'd say, "Look. You know you're one of the top people in the industry. You know that whatever you do, you're gonna be successful. What I want to do is to bring you on board into a place where you will be even more successful than you think you can be, and you're gonna be incredibly successful.
Because we're gonna surround you with people where you're gonna learn from every day, And you're also going to a culture where you're going to, to take something that's broken and be part of the solution. And so you're not living in other people's shadows and shoes, you're building something and a culture with your DNA, your story, and your talent at the heart of it."
Charles:
It sounds compelling. Did you believe that yourself?
Carter Murray:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely I did. And I think part of the FCB turnaround was the business and the finance and how we restructured it. But the core of it was really about hiring those type of people that resonated with, bringing them on board and together going on a journey that was about really believing that creativity is a multiplier, an economic multiplier for clients can make a real difference out in the world for business and for people.
Charles:
How old were you when you took over, DraftFCB?
Carter Murray:
I was 38, which, you know, at the time I'm like, "I'm not that young." Now I'm 45 looking back, going, "Wow, that was kind of a bit nuts." Yeah, I mean, at the time, the headhunter who knew me well said, she said to me she said to me in a very English voice, "Carter, now, don't freak out. I've got this brief for you." And, she knew it was right for me because it was a turnaround brief and it involved getting people to think about the place differently. It involved huge ambitions, when everybody thought everything was dire. It was such a great brief for me.
I brought that up. I'm like, "You know, this is kind of bonkers. I'm 38. There hasn't- " And she's like, "I know. There hasn't been a 38 global CEO of a top 10 network. That's why you'd be perfect for it." And, and I think she thought she was playing to my ego, but it was actually going the other way, where I was like, "Okay, I ... " (laughs). "Let's pause up on this one for a second." But, you know, I think my last two or three jobs have been turnarounds. And so I think I had the confidence and the belief to go for it. And that if I couldn't do it, no one would reproach me for it. I think people would be like, "Well, you know what? He had a really good go at it." I've learned more about myself than I ever thought I would in this job as a person, not as a CEO.
And it's opened my eyes up to things. We talk about diversity, and you and I have talked about that personally, it's become a big thing for me. It's opened my eyes up to what people go through. Because we have 8,000 people, all the HR stuff and people's stories, and careers, and clients, and I get exposed to what people go through in a way that I didn't when I was probably a bit naïve, you know, the frat boy from Duke going up through the system, focusing on my career, my life. I probably wasn't open eared and open eyed enough to really see what was going on in the world. And I think when I became a CEO, it was not, not FCB-specific- larger than that. I was-
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carter Murray: (16:09)
I was, you know, I often say, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you hear it, you can't unhear it. And if you do, you become complicit. And, it's been an amazing lesson in life, and leadership, and, and, and advertising doing this job.
Charles:
When you were given the opportunity, when you were presented with the brief, did you see that as a risk? Were you conscious that this was a personal career risk to take this on if-
Carter Murray:
No.
Charles:
... I don't get it right? You never felt that at all?
Carter Murray:
Never felt that.
Charles:
You saw it as-
Carter Murray:
I'm 38 years old, I've run a global account at Publicis with Nestle, clients who I loved. And I proved, I think that I could be a good business partner to them, and I had a good relationship with Maurice. And then I went to Y&R, and we had a very successful year. And I thought, "If I do this, I, maybe I'll screw up the opportunity to be a global CEO again, because I'll probably ... " You know, I thought it was a 50-50 chance of it not working, you know, going in because it was a pretty dire situation.
But I thought it was a risk worth taking, and that I was always be able to find a job. I didn't think like I'd be unemployable for doing the job. I just thought, I really felt, if you care about the industry, if you care about creativity, and there was some signs that people were walking away from that. If you believed that there was a better way of doing things in terms of leadership or trying different ways of running an organization, and then you're offered to take over an iconic agency like FCB, you can't be anything but excited, right?
And so I was, it was incredible. It was like exciting, it was humbling, it was, it was frightening, but all, but not really frightening, oddly. It was just exciting. Because I also knew a lot of people who were super talented who I wanted to surround myself with. And I'm like, "Wow. If I'm the global CEO, and this company needs turning around, I know I can go and get the Nigel Jones' of the world, and go through the contacts that I have and people I know find the Tylers of the world, the Susans of the world, and get them to come and work with me. And with them, I know we can turn it around." I already had Cindy and Neil who were here in HR and Finance. It was like, " know that the odds of us succeeding will improve every day, and that I can really do this if I surround myself with people who are that talented."
Charles:
So those of us on the outside of the company, who knew it from an outsider's perspective, could see this agency have, having gone through the FCB heyday when it was really acclaimed, the Draft acquisition or merger, the sort of sublimation of the FCB brand to Draft, and saw an agency in massive decline from a creative standpoint, there was very little of interest there. So you walking into that environment, I mean, it was definitely declining, certainly from, from my perspective. To walk into that, and, and in seven years to now have created this is a remarkable turnaround-
Carter Murray:
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Charles:
... by an- by any stretch of the imagination.
Carter Murray:
I also have a lot of executive coaching-
Charles:
(laughs).
Carter Murray:
... to learn to say "Thank you, I appreciate it." That was very British. So it was very, "Da, da, da, da, da, Charles, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma."
Charles:
(laughs). Really, really, yes.
Carter Murray:
But it's, it means a lot hearing that from someone like you. I appreciate it.
Charles:
When you walked in the door, 38 years old, you knew the heritage that was now buried, you understood the problems, clearly. You were excited by the opportunity as you've said. How did you first go about stripping back the stuff that was getting in the way? What were the first things that you thought you had to do to get this thing moving in the right direction?
Carter Murray: (19:29)
Well, there were one or two things. One of, from my previous experience at Y&R, but also Publicis and Leo Burnett, one of the things I'd observed going up through the ranks, and also one I moved into leadership positions is very often, in large companies, or established companies, or long, long existing companies, there are a core group of people that stick with it, that are underappreciated, undervalued, and no one says thank you enough. So, I think one of the key things coming in here, was to try and listen and engage the people that had worked here for 20 years and 30 years and stuck with it. And I think a big misconception when times are hard is all the good people leave and all the bad people stay. I don't think that's true. I think there are some really amazing people that stick with the company through thick and through thin.
And so, when I came here, I tried to do the same thing. I also think sending a few messages about what's important to you early on is really important. So the first meeting I ever did at FCB was was at a creative council meeting of the top creatives in the world. And, I insisted I have to go see them socially at the time. And I walked in just to meet them and talk to them, and I found out afterwards that circulated very quickly that was a clear message about where the company was going, it was going to be a creative-led organization.
I think one of the other things that was really important to me at the time was being self-aware that I was a 38 year old English person coming into a company when no one knew me, which, by the way, I think is a benefit. I think it's a lot harder to be promoted up in an organization when you have to do change. And then you have to manage people who were your peers, and there's preexisting friendships, not friendships, politics, stress, just human things where it's harder. I think when an outsider comes in with a fresh perspective, if the outsider has some self awareness, I think it's a lot easier to bring people together and move them.
But the challenge when I did that, is I was 38. And a lot of the people who reported in to me had been there for a long time, were older than me, perhaps felt they might, should have gotten the job. And so, it was how do I move the power back down to them? So one of the things I did early on was we took the top 100 executives, we broke them up into groups of 25. I brought in an outside moderator, and brought them all into the room.
And we built from one meeting to the next, and I started the meeting with a white board, and I said, "You know, I want you to go around the room and tell me how many years you've worked in marketing." Went round the room, and it was 20 years, 30 years, 15 years, 10 years, 20 years. And on the white board, I'd write down how many years they'd worked in marketing. And then I go, “Hi.”. At the time I was about 38 and started late, so I'd had 15 years of experience. So I said, you know. At the bottom I'd put, you know, 230 years, and I go, "Hi, I'm Carter."
And on the right handed side of the white board, I put, I've got 15 years. And so I am the global CEO, but you know, I've got 15 years experience. And in this room we have 235 years of amazing marketing experience. And it would be, frankly, stupid and foolish, not just naïve, for me to think that I have all the answers when I'm outgunned by this much experience in the room. And so this is our opportunity to speak now or forever hold your peace. And we're gonna do this in four sessions, and we're gonna work out where we want to go, what our challenges are, who we want to be. Then after that, I want to stop having internal meetings, and I want to focus on the clients, the work- "
Charles:
Hm.
Carter Murray:
" ... and the talent." And I think that meeting was important to give everyone a chance. And, you know, there's the expression, ‘change the people or change the people.’ You know, there were some people that really came on board on the journey. Some who self-selected out, Some who were all in from the beginning.
Charles:
How quickly could you tell in that process, who fell into each of those three groups?
Carter Murray:
Gosh, it's a really good question. I suppose, I suppose there was some in each group that were obvious from the beginning. And there were some who surprise you. And I think one of the things I've, I've sort of learned is, I'm learning still is to give space for people to grow, and to change, and to learn. I also have learned, too, if in your gut, there are some people who you know are wrong, you should change them out sooner rather than later.
I think sometimes we want to believe we can change people, but there are some people, you know, a leopard doesn't change their spots. Once they're so ingrained in how they work or how they see you, where they're never really gonna get on board with your vision, I think you should exit them sooner rather than later. Funnily enough, it's not normally that many people. I mean, It's a lot easier to lead a broken organization than a successful one.
Charles:
Because?
Carter Murray: (24:13)
Because, and that was a weird lesson for me. Now we're doing well. Because back then, it's like you're on a burning platform. So when you say to everybody, "Hey, let's go over there." Everyone's like, "Well, it's pretty hot over here. Let's go over there. Let's not ask too many ... " And we all sort of run over there. people want leadership. people want to change, because they know it, it can only be better than where they're standing right now.
I think the challenge when you're successful is everyone starts second guessing every decision, go, "Well, we're quite comfortable here. Are you sure you want to move?" And then, even, even the people who you report to, or even people outside the industry are like, "Why would you change? It's going so well." So it's sort of one of those really weird contradictions that you always think you want the big, successful job that someone's done that you want to take over, but the only way to go is down. You think that it's easier to be a CEO of a successful company, because things are easy. But it's actually not.
It's a lot easier to lead broken companies, in terms of getting everyone to talk about where they want the company to go, than it is to run a successf- and that, and that's, maybe that's obvious to everyone else. But it wasn't obvious to me until I experienced it.
Charles:
Now that you have gone through this transition, and now that you are one of the most acclaimed creative companies in the world, certainly based on the performance at Cannes last year, by other metrics as well, how have you had to adapt your leadership to satisfy that point? Now that people are confident and comfortable about what you're doing, how hard is it to make people ...
Carter Murray:
I'm still learning. I'm still adjusting. Um, and I'm loving that, because it means it's interesting going to work every day. I think, you know, having a mark on your back, having other, you know, other people or agencies going, "Ah, I like Carter and Susan, they're lovely people, and, you know, Draftfcb's, you know, bless, you know, type of thing to, to starting to, more consistently beating people in pitches, and, and in awards in, in, in those areas.
I think staying the course on, generosity, keeping the tone and the culture right, without getting upset or angry by people's more competitive behavior, or bad behavior, should I say, I think has been a really a really important lesson. You know? And I think trying to change the core of the culture and the core of our leadership style, and stay true to that has been really, really important for me personally, not to change and adapt too much. If anything, I think it's made us go back to our core and remind us of, why have we found the success and to stay true to it.
Charles:
It's a hard balance isn't it? Because, to your point, when the momentum starts to build and people start to become confident, it's as easy for that to become sclerotic behavior as anything else, actually. And so finding the right balance between staying true to the principles, being guided by the characteristics that have got you this far, and also being willing to disrupt it enough that you're staying vibrant, and active, and progressive-
Carter Murray:
Yeah.
Charles:
Howard Schultz famously had a Friday disruption group, where he had half an hour with a changing group of people every week, where he said, "The topic of this conversation is only, what is it that might make everything we think we know wrong?"
Carter Murray:
Yeah.
Charles:
Which is a great provocation.
Carter Murray:
Yep, it is. And you know, one of the things I try and do, we invest a lot in which, a lot of companies stopped doing in our industry, is I took my top 20 CEOs to Oxford University as students for a week, where literally, f- actually, it was three days, and then we worked on each side. But where we literally, went as students and had some of the top professors in the world present in breakout groups of three or four, and it wasn't about, it was about thinking differently. We're going in a month and a half, we're doing, we do that every two years. We're going to Houston, we're going to go to NASA-
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carter Murray:
... and talk about data, and creativity, and insights. And we're actually gonna take three days off. And it's not just about the business. It's about us as leaders keeping that creativity and that thinking together. And I think we get, sometimes, we look at the P&L, and we think, "Oh my God. that's not a core necessity." And actually, that is the core necessity, to get us to keep moving. And that stuff really works, and that really matters. and sometimes people come back from, they don't even realize, but it's subconscious as well in terms of their day-to-day.
Charles:
Yeah. When you walked in the door, seven years ago, and you started to make the changes, one of the things that I was struck by from the outside was how quickly you took the Draft name away.
Carter Murray:
Yeah.
Charles:
Which made me believe this guy - we didn't know each other back then- I said, "This guy gets it." Like the first thing you had to do in terms of public credibility, I thought, was you had to strip it back to this is the pure brand essence. What allowed you to make that decision? And was that part of a broad ... Did you have a vision for where you wanted the agency to be over the first 12, 18 months? How did you make those kinds of big decisions?
Carter Murray:
Well, it's interesting, because when I came in, I'd heard so many different things about what the strengths of the agency were. Some said, "No, it's still a creative agency." Some said, "No, it's just a direct agency now." Some said, "It's totally screwed." (laughs) "Good luck." I am in a business where I got in the business because I believe that creative people see the world through a different lens, and can turn that into a business advantage for our clients.
So creativity had to be at the core of whatever I belonged to. And then, I'm someone who loves clients. Like I love client business. And I wanted to come in and understand the types of clients we had, and the types of clients we wanted to have. So I didn't go in with this, "I'm gonna become this." I came in with a few core tenets and beliefs. And then, a passion for bringing the right people together, look at what's going on, analyze, and then intuitively go somewhere.
So, the Draftfcb was, it felt like an eternity, by the way, to make the decision, because I really wanted to give it justice. FCB was one of the most storied ad agencies in the world. Draftfcb together, when it happened, I remember thinking, "Gosh, that's clever, but I would never advise a client to put two brand names on the door like that." So, I spent a little bit of time really understanding where is the equity? Is it in the Draft or the FCB? And which one makes sense for where we need the company to go for our clients?
And ultimately, you know, I went in open minded, but listened to everybody. I wanted to go with, you know, FCB is the third oldest brand in our industry. Creativity is important to me, so that skewed that. And then I made the decision to distill it down into FCB. But I still want the heritage of understanding data, understanding, one-to-one in the company. But that wasn't going to be what's on the door.
Charles:
How did you feel about that, when you made that decision? Di- were you, were-
Carter Murray: (30:51)
It was incredibly hard. It was probably one of the hardest decisions I've had to make in my ca- because, you know, again, I'm dealing with shareholder value. I'm dealing with people that I respect and like, and taking names off the door is not an easy thing to do. I'm dealing with people's livelihoods, you know, it's, it's a responsibility. So I put a lot more thought into it than I think pe- It wasn't just, "Oh, I'm taking the name off."
And also, I don't know, you've worked on naming and branding projects. It's always subjective. So normally, when you do something like that, 50% of the people go, "That's amazing." And 50% of the people go, "What a shitty decision." And I was pleasantly surprised by how overwhelming the resp- I would say 99% of the response was, the board of Interpublic were incredibly supportive, Mike and Philippe. Employees were supportive. You know, I still have, a good relationship with Howard Draft, who I respect immensely.
And so, I think people understood where the company was at, we needed to make decisions like that. And I think it showed that we were making decisions, there was gonna be a direction for the company. And it actually had a much bigger impact than I ever thought it would. I thought it would have some impact, but to your point, even Susan, she's like, "Wow. That sends a message."
Charles:
Yeah, I mean, it really did communicate decisive leadership in fact.
Carter Murray:
Yeah.
Charles:
It said this is a person who really does understand, at least from my perspective, the inherent value of the brand. It obviously had risk attached to it and was a hard decision. In general, what's your relationship with fear?
Carter Murray:
My relationship with fear. Gosh. I don't think about fear too much, to be honest with you. I always think if you look at a situation, you really try and listen to all sides, you try and get all the information, and you follow your gut, and you trust your intelligence and your gut, and you can make a decision, and you really believe you're doing right by the people in the business, I suppose that eliminates fear for me.
I think I'm led by a compass, which is try and do right by the people, and yourself, and the business. Try not to do politics and bullshit, and care. And that sort of is a knife through fear.
Charles:
Do you second guess yourself?
Carter Murray:
All the time, I think one of the key things of leadership is to make decisions. But oddly, one of the key things of really hard, but I think good leadership, is to be able to make a decision, and then if you get information afterwards that makes you realize you made the wrong decision, to be brave enough to make another decision and change it.
So it's almost like you know, I think leadership is making a decision, but really brave and strong leadership is, is being able to make the second decision, reversing the first decision. And, of course, then you still go, "Well, doesn't that signal that you don't know what you're doing?" And I'm like, "Well, if, if you do that with every decision, yes." But I would say, in my first year, you know, even with hiring people, you're not always gonna get it right. And I think sometimes being brave enough with both parties to go, "This hasn't worked early on." And, sends a message that it's not gonna be a culture of favoritism, and it's not gonna be a culture of your people versus the people who were there before. But it's really gonna be a, you know, a meritocracy is important.
Charles:
A lot of people struggle with that reality of moving quickly to a decision and say, "This isn't a good fit. Let's move on from here." Sounds like you don't struggle with that. As you know, some people really do have a kind of a visceral, human reaction to, "Well, we should give them a bit more time. And we should try a bit harder." And it has a really depressing effect on the organization as well as the individual is, I find. How do you come to terms with the human dynamic? What's the context in which you place that?
Carter Murray: (34:34)
I think everyone has to be given an opportunity to change. And everyone has to be given an opportunity to have feedback and act against it. I think that's what really pisses people off. It's like, you know, and someone said once, "Evaluations shouldn't be surprises because leaders sh- and, and your bosses should be giving you feedback all during the year." But I think the tough conversations, Like letting someone go is hard. Or, telling someone they're not doing a good job is hard. And the tough conversations, by definition are hard.
The way I think about it, though, is that I think the opposite of nice is nasty. It's not tough. I think you can be nice and tough, I think people appreciate the tough conversations. Like if I would have gone into banking, and I have friends who are bank, I think I would have been terrible at it. I would have hoped, when I was 25, someone would taken me aside and said, "Carter, you're a terrible banker. Go do something else." instead of being strung along, I would not have appreciated it. And I think people want honesty. You know? And I think that's one of the biggest things in the world today that frustrates people is just the bullshit, and the lies, and I'd rather be honest with people and have the tough conversation than let things linger.
I think that's how you get organizations to be better, is by having more honest conversations. And so we spend a lot of time - we're in the middle of a cycle, now, evaluating people, understanding, giving feedback like, "Do they need coaching? Do they need a 360? Are they in the right point in their careers? Are they in the right job? Do we need to move them? Uh, are we having the fair, conversations with them, or are we just putting that under the rug for now because they're doing a good job right now in what they're doing?"
Charles:
Three years ago when we talked, you espoused a philosophy of what you described as step up leadership.
Carter Murray:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
How do you feel about that as a philosophy three years later based on what you now know? Is it still valid? Does it always work? Are there times where it doesn't work? How do you assess it?
Carter Murray:
I'd say it's matured (laughs) a little bit. And circumstances change. So, the step up leadership, if you remember, was when I joined Draftfcb, uh, there were three searches going on round the world with search firms. And I was looking at Canada's and they were C and D list quality candidates. And I was like, "This is terri- Why have we not got the stars?" And they went, "Well, Carter, that's the best we can get. No one wants to join." So I realized the way to get the world class talent that I wanted in a lot of cases was to find people that had hit a glass ceiling, or who had reached the top of their discipline, but not been given the chance to run an office, and let them step up into the role. And that's how I got the people in the beginning. I would say that's still a huge part of the talent pool I still go for, a huge part of it.
I think what I found, though, is mixing the step up potential with one or two seasoned leaders is even more powerful than having everyone stepping up on a team. And that may sound obvious, but I would say so it's more of just a slight adjustment. But I love the fact that I have people working for me that have stepped up, who I think will end up running holding companies one day, or being global CCOs sooner rather than later, quite a few of them. And I was part of that journey, and I love that. So the step up approach has absolutely worked for us in 75% of the cases, which is a pretty good batting average for step up talent.
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). For sure.
Carter Murray:
But I think the other piece is having a bit more of the, the seasoned experience to that. And the other thing is now that we are really successful, we do get the phone calls from iconic leaders ... so I think it's still very core to who we are, but I think it's evolved a little bit with our success.
Charles:
How do you lead?
Carter Murray:
Gosh. I seem to lead by learning every day. I mean, every time I think I'm a pretty good leader, I get kicked in the teeth, and I get some feedback from the team, or something happens in business, and I go, "God, I've ... It's embarrassing how much I still have to learn." And it's humbling. And so, I hope I'm a leader that learns. And I try and lead with my strengths, which are passion for the business, you know, a real love for being with interesting people and talented people. And caring really deeply about, my clients, the product coming out of the door, and really trying to make a difference in the world and with people.
Charles:
What are you afraid of?
Carter Murray:
Well, I suppose the mind of having this job, and you've interviewed a lot of people, but when I present sometimes to the board of Interpublic, and Michael's sort of coaching me on it, He always says, "You know, finish with what you're excited about and what you're worried about."
And so, (laughs) every time I present, I always finish with what are you excited about? And then, a word comes up. ‘Everything.’ I'm excited about everything. I really am. I'm excited about everything. The industry, our people, our clients, our products. You know, what's happening with AI and how that's changing the world. this tension between how did you mass one to one, but how do you still have strong brand strategy and creativity? And it's not an either/or, it's an and I'm excited about all of that. And then I have this slide what am I worried about? What do I fear? And the same word comes up. ‘Everything.’
Charles:
(laughs).
Carter Murray: (39:48)
I'm worried about our industry, I'm worried about what some of the holding com- not ours, but where some of the holding companies are going and what that's doing to our industry. I'm worried about the creative product. I'm worried about our clients' businesses and how we, how, w- how they're doing, and how we're gonna ... I'm worried about AI, and how that's used in the right way, and doesn't become another sort of bullshit blind alley. It's not. It's gonna profoundly change our world. But I'm worried about how people are gonna ... I worry about our people, I worry about, about everything.
So, to stay sane and normal, you balance out what all of that, being excited about everything and worried about everything, and you sort of charge down the middle, and make sure that through all that excitement and worry, you listen and you learn.
And, like I said, I find it so bizarre that I've been doing this job for six years, and it's very nice to hear your nice words. But I still say to the team, you know, "I think we're doing well. But, you know, this is a tough industry. And, there’s so much still to do. And there's so much for me still to do in terms of learning about how to be a good leader. And I think I'm only partway there."
Charles:
I wrap every episode with three takeaways, three themes that I've heard that I think contribute to your success from a leadership standpoint. Interestingly, the things that I think in some ways you are best known for and that you talk about are, I think, inherent to you. So your passion, and your energy level, and your enthusiasm, and you bring those naturally. So I'm gonna put those aside, because the things that I'm struck by are the attributes that you bring where you have a choice about how you can behave.
The first is that you are vulnerable, the description of your first meeting with your team here, in which you had them add up wha- you added up their total experience and compared it to your total experience is the act of a vulnerable leader, willing to say, "I don't know as much as you do." Most people walking into that situation, I think, would be trying very hard to convince everybody that they were the right choice for the job. And-
Carter Murray:
Hm.
Charles:
So the vulnerability, I think, draws people towards you because they feel like they can trust you. Two, I think is your willingness to take on board information and really think about it. Again, I think from the outside, it's easy to see you as somebody who walks in, as you said, foot forward and charging forward. But in fact, you are considered and thoughtful, you take on board information and make decisions based on, um, evidence, as much as instincts.
Carter Murray:
I just wish I'd signaled that more.
Charles:
Yes.
Carter Murray:
My character doesn't signal-
Charles:
No, I think-
Carter Murray:
... that I'm listening. But-
Charles:
That's true, the visibility, right? But the evidence-
Carter Murray:
Yeah.
Charles:
... suggests that you-
Carter Murray:
Thank you.
Charles:
... absolutely do. The third, and this again is a trait that I think is not present for as many leaders as people assume is that you make decisions. Sometimes to your point, you're willing to remake them, if you get evidence to the contrary. But you are willing to make decisions, and difficult decisions. Most leaders prevaricate and dance around the subject, and deflect the issue. But you, in fact, I think walk in and say, "I have to decide it's A, or B, or maybe sometimes C. But I have to decide, and I'm prepared to do that."
Carter Murray:
Hm.
Charles:
So those three things, I think, are very much at the heart of the success that you have had and I think will continue to have.
Carter Murray:
Well, I love that. It's a lot for me to digest. I will go away and think about all that. But I think, they are probably quite good pointers when I stray from those three things, is when I probably, end up going off course. So, I actually appreciate it. That's quite, it's always helpful to have these conversations, to have it recorded is always, is always a trip, too. But I really appreciate you doing it, it's, it's great experience for me.
Charles:
Likewise. This has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for taking the time..
Carter Murray:
Really enjoyed it. Thank you.
