Leading In The Time Of Virus
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 217: Ian Davis
Hi. I’m Charles Day.
This episode is part of season 2 - which we’ve sub-titled, “Leading In The Time Of Virus”.
Since the outbreak of COVID-19, this podcast has been focused on how leaders are adapting to a global health pandemic.
But the death of George Floyd has finally and fully exposed what millions of people already knew. Another virus has already infected our society. Racism. It’s been here for centuries. It adapts and evolves, it is fueled by hate and fear and it leaves in its wake deep, wide and lasting damage. And pain.
Today, leadership requires that you meet the challenges of both the coronavirus and of racism.
Talking will not do it. Well written manifestos will not do it. Posting employment statistics will not do it. You have to make hard decisions, in some cases financially expensive decisions. Otherwise, you’re complicit.
This episode is a conversation with Ian Davis, Founder + Principal at Age Of The Creative. They describe themselves as a creative consulting firm that problem solves for companies and brands. They bridge the disparate worlds of business, strategy and artistry through deep relationships with their network of over 200 influential creative artists.
I invited Ian on the show after reading an open letter that he posted on LinkedIn in early June. The link is embedded in the show’s notes.
Ian is a black man and his letter was addressed to Jonathan Shipman, who was Head of Production at McCann, when Ian was a producer at the ad agency a little over ten years ago. In the letter, Ian describes two incidents in which he believed Jonathan and other members of McCann’s leadership perpetrated what he later came to understand were micro-aggressions. Micro-aggressions are another form of racism.
I’ve known Jonathan Shipman for a number of years and I believe him to be a caring, sensitive man. Reading Ian’s post, I was struck by three things. Ian’s courage in writing the letter. Jonathan’s honest and humble responses to the post. And to my own reaction, which was to wonder whether I might have been guilty of similar behavior without recognizing it in the past.
Racism is a virus.
If Black Lives Matter is to be a vaccine or at the very least a therapeutic, we need to shine a light on racism in all its forms. And many of us, many of us need to be much better educated about how racism shows up so that we can take real action to wipe it out.
This conversation is part of that work.
Here’s Ian Davis.
Charles Day: (02:46)
Ian, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Ian Davis: (02:49)
Thank you for having me.
Charles Day: (02:50)
As context for this conversation, you and I talked last week after I read a post that you had put up on LinkedIn, in which you wrote an open letter to Jonathan Shipman, formerly the Head of Production at McCann, New York, and a number of other people at McCann and Interpublic, in which you described two incidents that had happened a decade ago. Am I remembering that correctly?
Ian Davis: (03:15)
Yeah. Give or take a year. So about a decade. Sure.
Charles Day: (03:20)
Which you described as what you came to later understand as micro-aggressions. Can you explain to us what those experiences were like from your perspective, through your experience and what are micro-aggressions?
Ian Davis: (03:35)
Yeah. Micro-aggressions are like the appetizer to the buffet of racism. It's a very subtle way of expressing prejudice. I just kind of realized that for me, the experience that I wanted to highlight really impacted my life and actually was, that I can remember, the first time I experienced racism as an adult. And the actual definition of micro-aggression, according to Merriam-Webster, is a comment or action that subtly and often unconsciously or unintentionally expresses a prejudiced attitude toward a member of a marginalized group, such as a racial minority. So i.e., “You're really pretty for a dark skin girl,” micro-aggression, and there's a list of others, a host of others as well. So yeah, for me, it was important to really face that situation. I never actually did it and I didn't realize it until the situation came up in a conversation and it still was under my skin and just really, really bothered me. And I just felt the need to not only address it and address the people involved, but more than anything, release it so that I can move forward.
Charles Day: (05:13)
And to the point you made in your letter to Jonathan, these two incidents really had a profound impact on you. I mean, they hurt you significantly. The hurt stayed with you for a long period of time. And it took you a while to really understand what it was that had made it so painful.
Ian Davis: (05:32)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's an unfortunate series of things that I highlighted, but I'm grateful it happened because at the time, I didn't know what a microaggression actually was. I found out not long after that happened, my ex-girlfriend or my girlfriend at the time, sorry, she was in at teacher's college in Columbia studying psychology. And she actually pointed it out to me in another sort of instance. And so I'm grateful that this happened because again, it was the first time that I can recall racism happening to me as an adult. But then I was able to further be informed and identify the other forms of racism that happened to me since then. So again, unfortunate series of things that happen, but it's impacted my life in a large way. And I think just as a black person, unfortunately anybody that listens to this podcast as a black, indigenous or a person of color, can sort of testify that these are things that we experience every day. It's extremely unfortunate that we have to live our lives in such a manner of experiencing this, and as a part of that too, that doesn't give us the opportunity to actually really be who we are in the spaces that these things exist in, professionally or personally.
Charles Day: (07:25)
I know that Jonathan responded to you on LinkedIn. I think you also had a conversation with him following that. Is that right?
Ian Davis: (07:34)
Yeah, we did. We did, and we've continued to speak, as well. So yeah, it was interesting to have the conversation. I'm glad it happened. Again, for me, it was about being able to address this and move forward and also forgive. It was more for me than it was for him, but also to provide information. I think in the current time that we're in, there's so much being shared. The current time that we're in just as a world and as a society, right, with technology and the advancement of how information is spread for your benefit or not for your benefit, I think we're in a time of information overload. And so with that, it's very challenging to disseminate and retain things in my opinion.
And so, obviously my experience of what I share is personal to me and my intent again, was to release that so that I could continue to move forward and thrive in my life personally and professionally. But also, anybody that has read it or seen it also informed. My story and people in the comments have said it like, my story is similar, or what I shared is a similar experience that other black people have. Not only in advertising, there's a big diversity or race issue in advertising around people of color, but outside of that industry in advertising and marketing, I guess you can say. Outside of that industry, again, these are things that black people face every single day. And so being able to inform and share my perspective and my experience, my intent was to put that out there and inform so I can move forward.
Charles Day: (10:02)
Yeah. I thought it was very powerful. It struck me on a number of different levels. And I want to just provide a little bit of context in order to inform the conversation I'd like to have with you. So it struck me in part, obviously large part, because of the environment in which you posted it, clearly, the murder of George Floyd, the sudden expansion, dramatic expansion of Black Lives Matter, the feeling that we are now living in a different time and that there is a different urgency and intention around institutions and individuals trying to really address this problem, finally. It struck me because I know Jonathan pretty well and I think he is somebody whose values I would have said are very similar to mine and his experiences, I think in many ways are similar to mine. And so it made me immediately wonder whether I have committed acts of micro-aggression and I hadn't been aware of it. And so it really made me think about it through that lens.
Ian Davis: (11:04)
And it made an [inaudible], too, right?
Charles Day: (11:06)
Yeah.
Ian Davis: (11:07)
Like you just said, it's like people probably don't know that they've done that, in one way or another. So for you to read it and it resonate with you, right? Like for me, if I'm looking outside looking in at that, what I posted, and even inside looking in, I'm looking at it like, "Okay, now Charles, how are you going to move forward with your life now." Right? How do you conduct yourself? Not saying you were wrong, if you did commit unconscious bias or give somebody a micro-aggression. But how do you now….? Are you intentional and do you make a decision to change your perspective and your behavior? If you're saying, “Yes,” the post served its purpose.
Charles Day: (11:53)
I think absolutely. I think for those reasons, and also I think because we can take that conversation and that experience of yours forward and expose it to a larger audience and a broader audience. And so hopefully, to create an exponentially powerful effect from the courage I think it took for you to be willing to write that and put that out there publicly. It also made me wonder much more specifically, I think to your point, what else have you experienced that I have not? And I'm sure there are many, many, many things. And obviously, we can't know the intimate details of each other's lives from an encyclopedic standpoint. But I am relatively confident that there are things that today you know you have experienced that I have never experienced. I am a white male. I am the definition of privilege on this planet. I recognize that intellectually. I think I recognize it to some extent emotionally, but not as fully as I think I need to. And so I'm interested in knowing whether you have an answer to the question, what do you know you have experienced that I have not experienced?
Ian Davis: (13:03)
Yeah. I don't know if we have enough time for that, Charles. Again, every day as black people…. I'm pretty positive you wake up and let's just put ourselves in a pre-COVID scenario. I don't know if you have an office or a place outside of your home that you go to and work from or conduct your business, but let's assume that you do. And let's assume that we're in a state prior to COVID. You wake up, you do whatever your morning routine is. You get dressed, you get your coffee. Maybe you spend time with your kids or your family or your wife or your husband or whoever. And then you go about your day and you go to your office or wherever, whatever's on your agenda, you go to this place. And in the process of all of that, you're fortunate enough to entirely be yourself through all of that and show up as exactly Charles. Unfortunately in America, black people, we don't have that privilege.
Yes, we have this power to be comfortable in who we are. There's this nomenclature of code switching. And I think everybody does it in different environments. However, we go to work as black people. If you work for somebody or if you run your own business, whatever the case may be, unless you're at LeBron James sort of status, bigger names with way bigger platforms and a lot more influence with the platforms, those people could, for the most part, be their authentic selves. Now, sometimes that comes at a cost because they're under a microscope and everybody watching them. And so if they do one thing or slip up, they could be deemed as good or bad. Right? But those are rarities, like, not rarities, but those are special sort of instances. But I'm also positive that LeBron and Jay-Z and whoever else these people are, they're also times they don't feel comfortable in just being themselves and also in being yourself, like conducting just your day-to-day life without any fear or worries.
And it's not to say that I sit in a space of fear or worrying, because I don't. But there's a certain level of just going out into the world every day. There's a certain fear. There's a certain way that we have to put our feet forward to conduct ourselves as we're all one, but as connected humans or just humans, to be seen on an equal playing field. And unfortunately, a lot of these times we're not actually seen on equal playing field. And so what often happens is, it's not that we're not always being ourselves, but we're not comfortable in pushing forward what we're really thinking. Maybe dressing how we want, maybe wearing the hair that we want or doing whatever we want, because that may not be deemed as acceptable in certain environments. Right? Whereas you're fortunate enough to be able to do that. And so just using that as an example, I think that can then serve as a baseline of the laundry list of things that I've experienced that you haven't, in addition to a bunch of things. Kind of being given a head-start in a race, you know what I mean? And I'm still in the blocks.
Just things like that. I mean, again, I don't want to sit on that too long, but just every day, every day. We wake up, and I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I'm very aware of who I am and Whose I am. And I'm very aware of my power. I'm very aware and confident in my capabilities, the gifts that I've been given, my strengths. So I don't have insecurities where this permeates my mind on a consistent basis. However, because this is how we have to live our lives, we're just kind of conditioned to know like, "Oh, I can't do that here. I can't show up like this. I can't do X, Y, and Z." You know what I mean? Because of judgment. Right? And we're all one, we're all humans.
We're all one species and we're all interconnected. And so it's unfortunate that we have these construct of things that have separated and divided us, that have taken us out of the pure essence of who and what we are, as divine and as powerful and as one. But that's just unfortunately where the world that we live in, in the world, not just America, that's the world that we live in. So I hope that answers and gives just a little context without getting a little too deep, but also sharing my experience as a black man in America, and just how I have to navigate day-to-day life. I'm fortunate enough to have my own business. And so with that comes a sense of autonomy to feeling like I can navigate spaces and places how I want.
However, there is a certain level of conduct and decorum and X, Y, and Z that I do need to have that I'm well aware of. I think anybody should have in running a business, but I also think, as black people in professional settings, we often have to go the extra mile. And when we kind of talk about equitable environments, a lot of environments aren't, like you and I could be the same age, Charles, do exactly the same job at maybe different companies, maybe even at the same company, and more than likely you would probably be making $10- to $20,000 more than me. Right? But these are things that aren't discussed. I almost kind of wonder why discussing money is so taboo in our society, but we're comfortable with discussing LeBron's money.
Why can't we discuss what you and I make? So the levels of and how we've been socialized and conditioned with our discretion and things that are taboo or aren't appropriate or deemed appropriate or deemed taboo, to me is whack. But yeah, sorry, I'm going off on a tangent. But I just wanted to just try to paint as clear of a picture as possible so that you have a little bit of context to understand life, as you can, how black people navigate the world.
Charles Day: (21:02)
Are there any days where there is not at least one moment where you're conscious that you're black and you have to moderate your behavior or fit in, in some way that is not natural or instinctive?
Ian Davis: (21:14)
It’s an interesting question. I know what environments I'm going into on a day-to-day basis. And there are times I've obviously adjusted how I carry myself and I always carry myself, that's consistent. I don't change how I carry myself, with respect, with the standard of excellence, with dignity and things like that and character, and loyalty. So those things are consistents that never change. But I might have to show up in a different way in certain rooms than I will in another room, for the sake of relatability, for the sake of compassion and just sharing. Yeah. I'm at the point now, I'm so comfortable in who I am and Whose I am and everything I said earlier, it's not even about unapologetically being me. It's just not. It's more about not succumbing to constructs and socialization and conditioning, and almost…not almost…but rewiring my mind to know that. And when you know that, and when you have that level of awareness, the world just opens up.
Charles Day: (22:45)
You mentioned you own your own business now, and you've got the opportunity to be able to create an environment for other people. Obviously across the entire creative spectrum, whether we're talking about brands or agencies or production companies or content companies or tech companies, companies for whom creativity is their driving fuel. They all work better when they are fully able to embrace a multitude of points of view and perspectives and experiences and skills and backgrounds and cultural reference points. How are you going about building a company and a business that supports that kind of mindset? How are you creating an environment that is welcoming and supportive of everybody? Given what you've experienced, obviously.
Ian Davis: (23:32)
Yeah. First off, I think it's, for me, I've been fortunate to have certain experiences while I've worked to build my company. And in those experiences, having exposure to certain resources that have helped me think differently and also accelerate how I navigate my business, what I prioritize, what I focus on. And I'll say that more than anything, my priority is being a values-based business. And I think when you add value, you're undeniable. And when you add value and when you're good at what you do, you become undeniable. So for me, there are things that I intentionally do and shape the company in a specific type of way around acculturation and the differences. However, I take down some of those walls and barriers, and I say, "I just want to be a great freaking business." You know what I mean?
I want to be a values-based mission-driven business, that is good at what we do. We know what we're talking about, we know who we're serving and more than anything beyond that, like that service, serving is important for me. And collectively, whoever I work with, be it my partners or people that we bring in to work with as well, they're best utilizing, maximizing their gifts. So again, it's more about values-based and making sure I operate morally the business from a good place because I own the business. I try to detach myself when I can, but that becomes challenging at times. But I think at times, the business can be a reflection of me and me just operating from a space and place of love. And so tying that into the values and tying that into strengths and gifts and capabilities and stuff like that, I think makes it easier for a business to thrive and to grow.
Charles Day: (26:34)
And if you were going to identify one action that the creative industries as a whole, again, however that manifests, whatever specific discipline that manifests through, one action the creative industries could take over the rest of this year that would dynamically improve this situation, what would that be?
Ian Davis: (26:58)
I want to say, put your money where your mouth is, and some companies have done that. I have my perspective on that because I think it's great and it's benevolent to support charities and nonprofit organizations that have specific visions and missions. However, some of those organizations don't also support, unfortunately don't support the creative community. And the creative community is what contributes to global culture and society. And we've seen that proven, which is why I named my company Age Of The Creative. We've seen that proven more than any time, and now more than any time, in the time of COVID.
What has been getting everybody through COVID? Art and creativity, right? Art and creativity have gotten people through COVID no matter what it is, music, different sort of imagery and visuals that you're seeing that you're inspired by, that's giving us a sense of connectivity to one another, right? Like yes, technology plays into it, but it's really art and creativity. And so when I talk about being authentic, putting your money where your mouth is, these are the people that contribute to global society and culture. Black Twitter would have a fit if I didn't shout them out and mention them. So many things, and just anybody that is relevant in the creative space, in the marketing space, in the brand space. So many things come from black culture and it drives how these spaces that I just mentioned move.
And a lot of the times that's not acknowledged and it's unfair, just because that's a little bit of my frame of reference, we just kind of look at the advertising industry and look at the sort of framework of general market agency versus non-general market or specialized agency or multicultural or whatever the case may be. I understand that the budgets go to general market agencies, but a lot of that initial sort of strategy might come from the multicultural, the smaller shop, because of their insights, because of their understanding of the consumer, because the understanding of the brand. And so I think it's just for brands they're making a mistake, I don't want to say just tapping into black culture. You've already tapped it in, but I think it's time now more than anything to not only compensate the creative community fairly, but bring them to the table as partners, as collaborators.
And that's what we strive to do as far as the mission is concerned with my company and creating opportunities for the creative community to work with and have a seat at the table to work with these bigger organizations and brands and corporations, because they are part of the solution. And my business model is intentionally unique in that capacity. Yes, I can connect you with amazing creative talent, but more than anything, you look at that creative talent just as talent and not as a contributor. For us, it's about putting a strategy together that actually now puts them next to us at the table. And then we actually hire them as the agency to actually implement and execute this work. We consult, we solve problems and it's around business objectives. It's not around being cool.
I don't care about agency life anymore. I don't care about advertising. I care about making places and spaces more equitable and also serving to help people grow and companies grow to be their best. And when I talk about people, I'm specifically talking about the creative community, because that is the community, the artists and creative community, that's the community that my company serves. So as far as again, just to directly answer your question, if you need to cut all that out you can, to directly answer your question, I think brands need to show up. We had a call last week with a company and they asked about wanting to do something around the Black Lives Matter movement and the moment that the world is in. And I told them straight up, I said, It's great.” We have a large network of creatives and artists, and there's a specific type of creative that they were looking to work with.
So I said, "We can get that for you easily. However, before this moment, you talk about wanting to amplify their voices. What were you guys doing 18 months ago? Because if you weren't doing anything, it's irrelevant for us to have this conversation." And that's what I talk about as far as putting your money where your mouth is like, yes, paying them, but really walking what you talk. You can't just make an Instagram post. You can't just make a press release and say that you support this movement and you support X, Y, and Z. You have to really live it. And I don't know entirely his business, but somebody that I can appreciate that does that is Jack Dorsey. Before this happened, he's somebody that in my opinion has shown up. I'm not just talking about black, white, that's not what I'm talking about. But just creating opportunities and spaces for people and putting his money where his mouth is.
And he's extremely innovative with what he's done with Twitter, Square, Cash App, and I'm sure he has a bunch of other ventures that he started. But I just love how, if he doesn't have an awareness of something, his perspective from what I can see outside looking in, his perspective automatically will change and he'll take action. COVID struck and now he implemented a policy where Twitter employees can work from home forever. We've known that we don't need to be in office spaces. I've known that. Even when I freelance, I remember going on an interview and asking at the end of the interview, if I had autonomy and flexibility to work from home. And they told me, "Yeah, just ask for it." And the person that sent me on that interview, that set me up for that opportunity, text me later and said, "I heard you're asking for flexibility."
And I told him, I said, "I'm X years old. I have this amount of experience. I don't need to be in your office to get my work done and I can prove it." And so now, there's this sort of forward thinking approach. And I think that that's the approach, you have to be uncomfortable. I think that that's the approach that the creative community needs to take or the brand and the marketing community needs to take, as far as working with creatives and even the creative industry community. You're not going to grow by staying in the same place. And so you have to jump out the window, you have to jump out the plane, risk versus reward is the new ROI. So I hope that answers your question. I apologize for taking you on a tangent.
Charles Day: (34:17)
It's good. It's really good. Two last questions for you. What have you learnt about yourself as a leader over the last three months?
Ian Davis: (34:26)
I'm still growing as a leader and that's not something I've actually reflected on. What I can say is that I'm grateful for the people and the community that's around me, that's helping me grow as a leader, that's challenging me, that's pushing me to be better. [Inaudible] Counsel is one of those people. She continues to hold me accountable and continues to show up as who she is, authentically her. And she keeps it 100. She shoots me straight. And that's what that means when you say keeping it 100. For anybody that doesn't know, shooting you straight, giving you the facts, what it is in real life. But yeah, I'm every evolving as a leader. Again, I just want to be the best. So I don't know what I've learned because I haven't necessarily reflected on that. But I think I'm just learning, and keep learning.
Charles Day: (35:22)
And last question, what are you afraid of?
Ian Davis: (35:31)
At this point, nothing. I'm in a very good space. Again, I've been aware, but I'm aware of who I am and I'm aware of Whose I am, and I can't let anything disturb my inner peace, disturb my vibe, disturb my energy, interrupt that. So I'm very adamant about protecting that, protecting myself, protecting the people around me and also wanting them to grow and be their best selves at their highest place, whatever that looks like for them. So I'm not afraid of anything. I never really have been. I used to only be afraid of my mom, growing up. Obviously that's changed a little bit now. But yeah, I'm not afraid of anything. I'm not even afraid of God. Like sure, you can say God-fearing. But God is within me. And so if I'm afraid of God, then I'm afraid of myself. And so I can't be afraid of God because I know that He's in all of us and I see it every day. I'm looking at it right now. We look at it every day. And so I just continue to be in a perpetual state of awe and gratitude. So I'm not afraid of anything. I just want to keep loving, learning, growing, and continue to serve.
Charles Day: (37:14)
Ian, thank you so much for sharing today. Thanks for writing the post originally, and for having the courage to show up in so many different ways.
Ian Davis: (37:21)
Thank you for having me in consideration for this. I'm grateful and I appreciate it.
Charles Day: (37:28)
Likewise. Stay well.
Ian Davis: (37:30)
You too.
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