Gerry Graf of Slap Global
On starting and ending and starting again.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 325: Gerry Graf
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Gerry Graf. He’s the co-founder of Slap Global. They describe themselves as a business accelerator fueled by creativity. Gerry is best known as the founder of Barton F. Graf 9000 - which he built into one of the most acclaimed advertising agencies in America.
Business Insider named Gerry “The Most Creative Man in Advertising”. Newsweek called him one of the “New Don Drapers”. PBS featured Barton as one of the new innovative shops in “The Real Mad Men of Madison Ave”. Forbes named Barton one of the 14 Most Influential Agencies in America. Fast Company named Barton one of the Most Innovative Advertising Agencies and Gerry one of the 100 Most Creative People in Business. And AdAge included Barton in their A-List issue 8 out of 9 years and named Gerry one of the 50 “biggest and best thinkers and doers from 20 years of advertising and consumer culture.”
Despite all of this, the company closed after ten years.
“Many things have happened in my life that I had identified as the worst thing in the world that could have ever happened. And they happened.
And I was still alive, and I still had a job and somebody would still hire me.”
Success and failure are cousins. So are risk and fear. You can’t have one without the other.
How we see them and what we learn from them shape the course of our lives.
In a pre-pandemic world, a lot of leaders got their titles as a rite of passage or a reward for longevity. They weren’t leaders at all. They were in the right place at the right time, and the playbook they used was well thumbed and easy to follow.
We’re living in a time in which the rules are different. Many of them no longer exist. And yet so many leaders are still trying to turn the clock back to 2019. Most of the references we hear today are about returning. But the winners will be those who re-imagine.
Human beings, by nature, are creatures of habit and risk adverse. And the status quo is a compelling drug.
But leadership has always been about looking ahead. About telling a story, building trust and keeping people moving forward.
There’s risk involved in all of that. You might be wrong. It might not work.
Which is when leaders step forward and try again.
Which, when you think of it, sums up the entire history of human evolution.
What story do you want to write?
Here’s Gerry Graf.
Charles: (02:48)
Gerry, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Gerry Graf: (02:51)
Thanks for having me.
Charles: (02:53)
When did creativity first show up in your life? When were you first conscious of creativity?
Gerry Graf: (02:58)
I think creativity showed up in my life early, but I wasn't conscious of it until college. So, I went to college and it was the first time I wrote down my ideas. But I always credit growing up in Boston, Boston, Massachusetts as starting my creative brain because all my friends and I used to do, we were kind of on the outskirts of the cool crowd.
We would just go to the parties, sit in the back and make fun of everybody. That's what we did for a living. And then when they came out to us. "You're talking about us," like, "Oh no. Oh no, no." But it was really good improv training.
Charles: (03:42)
So you said creativity was part of that early up bringing, even if you weren't conscious of it at the time. How did it manifest to you?
Gerry Graf: (03:47)
Well, besides, you know, sitting back and making fun of people, I came up through advertising as a copywriter and it seems like every single copywriter I've ever met plays guitar. I don't know why. So I played guitar. I played in a band with my brother who was a drummer and we wrote songs.
If our songs were horrible, we thought we were better than everyone else playing the best version of “Rush's Limelight” because we created it. And one of the first songs I remember writing was called, “The Company is Here.” It was about your parents having friends over and you being told to go down to the basement. D, D, D, E.
And then my father went to Notre Dame, the University of Notre Dame in Indiana. And my uncle, my dad's brother who I'm named after, was a genetics professor at Notre Dame. So I went to Notre Dame. Didn't really have a choice, but it's a good school. So it worked out and I was Pre-Med for two years and that didn't work out.
And then I was Psychology and then I ended up with a Business degree. But the most important thing in my life happened to me my freshmen year. I chose a dorm because it was across the quad from the dining hall. I wanted to be close to the food. And I didn't realize that I had chosen the quote unquote creative dorm of Notre Dame.
There are no frats or sororities in Notre Dame. Every dorm had a very specific personality. That was your club. And my dorm - Keenan Hall - was the creative place. And they put on a comedy review every year, in February. It was like a live Saturday Night Live of Notre Dame.
And I came home one Friday night, freshman year, and there was a group of guys sitting in the hallways writing stuff. And I asked them what they were doing. And they said, "We're writing jokes for the Keenan Review." And I said, "Oh, that's cool." And I had never written anything. I didn't even like to read back then. I never wrote anything.
And I just made a comment. We were talking about why we didn't have a priest in our dorm like every other dorm yet either had a priest or a nun. We had a brother, Brother Bonaventure, some Catholic thing, right. And I said, "What is a brother? Did he fail Latin? Is that why he's not a priest?" And some guy gave me a pad and a pen.
They said, "Write that down." I'm like, "What?" I was just being like a wise ass, you know, I was being a pain in the ass. So I wrote it down. And that started my writing career.
Charles: (06:39)
So were it not for your appetite and your desire to be close to the food, the advertising industry could be a very different place today?
Gerry Graf: (06:46)
It could, it could.
Charles: (06:48)
On such small margins are futures of worlds decided, in fact.
What led you into the advertising industry? What made you decide that was going to be your career path?
Gerry Graf: (07:00)
I didn't really know much about advertising. I got out of school and I moved to Venice Beach, California for a while, not to be in Hollywood or anything, but a friend's brother lived there. And, I worked as a part-time rat exterminator, with a Business degree from Notre Dame. My parents were proud.
I moved back home after six months because it was horrible. My dad says, "You have to get a real job." And the Boston financial community is very, very Irish. And I just went in for one interview at the Barry Murphy Investments, graduated from Notre Dame, the fighting Irish, and they didn't even ask me my GPA.
They said, "Where do you want to sit?" So I got my series seven brokerage license and some other licenses. And I was writing trade tickets and I hated it and I was miserable. And I had a sit-down with myself. I sat down in Boston Common and I'm like, well, you're too young to hate what you're doing. What do you want to do?
And I figured I want to do something that I love doing. Because I figured if, no matter how much money I made, if I woke up every morning going to do something I loved, I would be happy and I would get good at it because I loved doing it. Every morning I would want to go do it.
So I'm like, okay, great. What did you love? And the first thing in my mind was I loved staying up all night with those guys in the hall, writing skits and jokes and songs for that review. I loved doing that. And I had just moved back from California, Los Angeles and hated it.
So I'm like, okay, I'm not going back there. And I didn't even think I could be a screenwriter or anything. I had a very good friend. She went to Boston University, which had a great communications school. And she told me about advertising. She was like, "You know, you can be a copywriter." And I said, "What's that?" And she kind of told me about it.
And she introduced me to people in the Boston ad community and what they were doing. And they told me what copywriters did. I'm like, okay, that's what I'm going to do. And then funny enough, my girlfriend, who's now my wife, at the time said, "I'm moving to LA." And I'm like, "Oh, okay."
So I moved back to LA, but advertising was in my blood. And I just called every advertising agency in Los Angeles. Everyone told me, "Stay in finance. You don't know what you're doing. You're not any good at it." But once something gets in my head I'm going to give everything.
So, I called everybody and I met this guy at Lord Dentsu, this guy Ken Fitzgerald. And he looked at 12 ads that I wrote with just basically headlines with copy. There's no pictures for anything, you know. And he's like, "These all suck except for this." He's like, "Go figure out why this is good.” And then he said, “And take an ad class."
So I found this class, Steve Gary's Copywriting Workshop. And the ad in the back of Adweek said, if you can't write, call. And I thought that was genius, which it is. I'm like, this guy can teach me. It took me about a year and a half. I put the portfolio together.
I called Ken Fitzgerald back up, you know, and I said, "Hey, I think I figured out why this was good. And I have 10 more." And he was like, "Yeah, these are really good." And he showed his boss, Lee Covell, and Lee Covell said, "No one's hiring out in LA, but I've got a friend in New York at Saatchi & Saatchi. They're looking for junior writers. If you can get your ass out there, I'll get you an interview."
I got out to New York and I met Marie Arteca at Saatchi & Saatchi. And she hired me. I had this awesome suit from Fred Segal that I spent all my money on. I'm pretty sure I got hired because of the black linen suit. But Marie, Lee Covell and especially Ken Fitzgerald.
And to this day, if anybody calls me up, anyone gets to me and says, "Hey, Gerry, or Mr. Graf, can I come show you my work?" I have to say yes. I have to. Because I wouldn't be here if Ken Fitzgerald, didn't say, "Yes, come in and show me your stuff and I'll give you some time."
Charles: (11:21)
I just want to rewind a little bit in that story to a moment that struck me as you said it, which is, you said you were sitting on Boston Common thinking to yourself, ‘I'm too young to hate what I'm doing.’ Which strikes me - less so today. I think a lot of people in their twenties are asking themselves that question for lots of reasons, societally, as well as the pandemic, I think. But I think back then, that would have been a very rare piece of insight for people to have.
What do you think in your background or in your personality gave you the wisdom to utter that to yourself?
Gerry Graf: (11:49)
Well, I spent a lot of money on therapy to answer that question. And I actually I have, I know exactly where it came from. I was in high school and my grades were horrible. And they shouldn't have been because if I had read the book, I would have been, you know. And my father and I were yelling and screaming at each other.
You scream at each other, go away the next day, you love each other. That's how it was. And I have a very vivid image of my father saying in the middle of this argument, wanting me to take school seriously. He said, "Do you think I like my job?"
He goes, "I don't. I do it because I have responsibility for you, your brother, your sister, and your mother." And I remember hearing that at fifteen thinking, I felt really bad for my father. I go, “I wish that wasn't the case.” That's where that came from you know.
Charles: (12:42)
Yeah. That's a profound recognition. I mean that's an extraordinary reference point.
Is your father still around?
Gerry Graf: (12:48)
He's not. He passed away about 15 years ago. But I did pay tribute to him with my last agency, Barton F. Graf, I named it after my father.
Charles: (12:59)
Oh, I never knew that.
Gerry Graf: (13:01)
Yeah.
Charles: (13:03)
Obviously you had a storied career going from high powered and high profile agent to high profile agents. I mean, you worked at some of the greats, obviously. What made you decide you wanted to own your own agency?
Gerry Graf: (13:15)
A couple of things. I never liked anybody above me telling me what to do. That's either a middle kid thing or a Boston thing, or being from Lexington, Massachusetts where I grew up, which is where the Revolutionary War started. That was the first battle. I have a serious problem with authority.
So I look back and I can't believe how lucky I was to have bosses like Lee Clow, like Jeff Goodby, Rich Silverstein, Ted Sann at BBDO, you know, incredible bosses. I couldn't stand them when I was working for them. I learned tons, but I would never admit it at the time. So I always had that, if you're so smart, do it, do it on your own.
And then I worked at big agencies. Even Goodby was big. It was like 300 people when I was there. I did two stints at BBDO and all the success when I was at this giant 500 person agency came with the same twenty people. A small group of creators, producers, account people, planners, media people.
It was always a small group of people that I always associated with, where all my successes came from. And I was thinking, why do we need all of this when we could just take those twenty people and start our own place. And before I named my agency after my dad, it was almost going to be, “Those Twenty People.” That was my thinking.
And then the last thing that kind of put me over the edge was, I asked the CFO at Saatchi & Saatchi, which was my last agency before Barton. I said, "Can I take you to lunch or buy you lunch, bring it to your office? And can you show me the business of advertising?" Because I didn't understand it. My job was to motivate a group of people to come up with great ideas and then produce them.
I didn't understand the business. And he showed me the business of advertising. And I kind of got a clue of what Saatchi was charging clients for me. And that's not what Saatchi was paying me, right. So I was like, “Okay, thank you.” So those three things combined, I thought I could do it because my first ECD job was at BBDO and that was crazy.
I didn't know what I was doing. And then I went to Chiat and ran the New York office. And we were incredibly successful with a lot of Mars stuff and Nextel and Sprint and everything. And one year we were the most awarded agency in the world, just New York, not whatever. And I knew that these great creative ideas didn't just come from the creative department.
It was a partnership with our planners, our media people, our account people and our producers. So I knew that I had the ability to bring a few people together to do something magical. And I was just going to try to do that on my own at Barton.
Charles: (16:17)
What was your goal when you set up? What was your ambition?
Gerry Graf: (16:21)
My ambition, well, my first ambition was to be one of the most creative advertising agencies in the world. And then one of the most creative companies in the world beyond advertising. That was the mission. And you know, I think we kind of got the first part of that.
And then, you know, things, you know, we had a good 10 year run and it didn't happen. But it... my, I didn't know if… I don't know if I had a mission. I wanted a place where the most talented creative people wanted to come to create a home for just sheer creative talent. And once again, I'm not just talking about the creative department.
There are incredibly creative strategic planners, incredibly creative data people. I just wanted a place to attract them. So at our prime, we did that. I had a firm belief and I still do, that great creativity sells better than anything else. And I knew we would be successful, because I knew how to put a group together to get to great ideas. And I knew we'd be successful. And we were.
Charles: (17:31)
What kind of people were you looking for when you first started to put the company together?
Gerry Graf: (17:35)
Well, starting with the creative department, when I looked at someone's work, I can usually backtrack and figure out how you got to that idea. And the people I always loved to hire are when I have no idea how you got there. You don't think like I do. You get to the place I want to get to, but I can't figure that out.
And I love these wonderful minds. and mostly I call it like the couch test, whether you're a business person, a planner or whatever you are. If I don't want the conversation to end with you then I want to work with you. I've checked your LinkedIn, I've checked your resume. I know what you do and everything like that. But if I'm having a wonderful conversation with you, that just goes everywhere. I want to be around you.
Charles: (18:18)
And that was true for all the positions you were hiring for. To your earlier point to every department you were looking for that kind of chemistry with everybody.
Gerry Graf: (18:24)
I was, I was every department. I get really interested in a lot of different things. It might be because I bounced around with four majors at college or something like that. But I can find my CFO, you know, I used to be a broker. I can talk to you about that.
I could find out if you're a creative, how would you charge for our services, get into the creative part of that. With an account person or a business person, I could get into the creative part of that. So with everything, yeah, with everybody.
Charles: (18:51)
And how did you navigate the tension between, the focus on creativity that you've clearly naturally had a proclivity for and the dynamics around business, which obviously you were a relative novice at? How did you find the right way to balance those two? And how did you learn to trust the people who must have been helping you from a financial management standpoint?
Gerry Graf: (19:11)
Well, first of all, advertising creativity did not come naturally to me. It took me about four or five years to start getting good. I won my first award five years in. I used to tell people who would come to come to Barton and people who would come to Slap Global right out of school, I'm like, "I hate you," you know.
Because I wasn't good enough to come here. I had to go to Wells Rich Greene, and I had to slog through that. So, I know that the creative thinking can be taught and can be learned. But when it comes to business, it's all about trust.
And I was looking for a business partner for about two years, the right person, and no one felt right. And then I met Barney Robinson and he came recommended from Eric Silver, incredible creative person, and William Gellner, another great creative person. So I'm like, well, if these guys are recommending him it's going to feel good. And it did.
Charles: (20:10)
And what was it about him that gave you trust?
Gerry Graf: (20:14)
Well, in the interview process he was very open and honest. He told me a couple of times at BBH when he really messed up and thought he was going to get fired and how he fixed something. I remember one story he was telling me, and I never had anybody open up like that before
And I liked that. Even with my gut feeling there was going to be good. And with Eric and William recommending him, the first year was very slow. He wanted to hire an accounting firm and I said, "Well, we'll just hire them on a part-time basis. I want to see what they do." And then after about a year or so, the trust grew.
Charles: (20:58)
The company obviously had a huge amount of success. I mean, it's acclaimed, recognized, awarded. What do you think were the foundations of that? What do you think you did well that allowed you to achieve that kind of success for the time the company was around?
Gerry Graf: (21:14)
First thing we did was we came up with world famous ideas. We really did. Those ideas, I would like to say, you really couldn't take that idea, change the logo out and give it to another client. They all came from the spirit and the origins of whoever we were doing advertising for. Supercell, KAYAK, Little Caesars, it came from them.
Growing up at Goodby and then going to Chiat, I learned the importance of strategic planning. And even though a lot of our ideas, if you look at them, they seem quote unquote crazy, I could explain to you every creative decision based on the strategy, the research, and the data. I would never say, “Oh, just do it, it's funny.” We never did that.
Everything was strategically based and I had one of the best planning departments I'd ever worked with. So, two things would happen. One, I could sell more breakthrough work because I'm talking to the CMO and I'm explaining how it's done there, right. And then when that work runs, it's based on strategy. It's based on the DNA of the client. It's for nobody else.
So I could sell breakthrough work. It would go out to the world. Many times it would break through. And when people did notice it, it did something to them. It motivated them. So I think that's why we were successful. We made great work, so we attracted great talent and our great work sold a lot of stuff.
Charles: (22:57)
And what about in terms of the environment you created for people to work in. What do you, what do you think you did well there?
Gerry Graf: (23:03)
That's one thing I never got into, culture. I had people helping me at Barton to create a culture. All I did was, number one, I'm going to work as hard as everybody else. We're all in this together. I'm the owner and the only investor in the entire company.
But if the client calls up and says, “We need a radio spot by end of day,” and everyone else is too busy, I'll just jump on my keyboard and I'll write it. And I expected that from all departments. We were all working together. To get to great creative work, yes, it takes talented people, but even the talented people have to put lots and lots of hours in. I think anyone who comes up with a great idea, the most important thing they did is they worked harder than everybody else. So I expected a lot from people and we could sell them and we could make it, and we would be rewarded, award wise and money, and we could step back and almost always be insanely proud of what we did.
Charles: (24:13)
Did you like the leadership aspects of running your own business?
Gerry Graf: (24:17)
It took some getting used to. I did like it. I thought there were a lot of watch outs. I was the majority partner. I was the sole investor. I was the chief creative. And I was very aware that it could easily turn into a place where whatever I say goes.
And I'm right more times than not, but I'm wrong, I just edge it. So that made me nervous that anybody who would just listen and say, “Yes, I'll make that change,” just because I said it. I didn't like that part of it. Now at Slap Global we've been around for about a year.
I have a creative partner, Maxi Itzkoff and I love it. Because we check each other, and I didn't have that at Barton. I really love having a creative partner again. So at Barton, the only part of the leadership I liked was control of the creative thing, creative product.
And I could say, “We're going with this work right here. And we're not bringing in anything less, because this or these two campaigns, this is the right thing to do. And if they don't like it or if they fire us, that's fine. We'll just go find somebody else who wants great work.” That's the part I loved. To be able to make that rule, you know.
Charles: (25:32)
You said a couple of minutes ago, that you had two goals for the company when you set it up. One was to do extraordinary creative work that really made a difference, and clearly you achieved that. And the second you said, I think, it was to be one of the most innovative companies in the world. And you said you succeeded on the first measurement, and not necessarily by the second. Why do you think that was so? Why do you think that you couldn't get to the second part of that?
Gerry Graf: (25:56)
We were getting there. You know what I mean by the second part, with our biggest client, Supercell who makes the mobile game Clash of Clans and Clash Royale, at one point the number one downloaded mobile game at the app store, we got close to where I wanted it to be.
And by that I mean, we did phenomenal marketing and they started trusting us with their product. We started being asked for recommendations on their games. We kept coming up with ideas to help their business. And that's where I wanted to get into. And we were getting there, we got there with Supercell sometimes. But that's a long process and it takes a lot of trust. So we were close, but didn't quite get there.
Charles: (26:45)
So the agency lasted what, about 10 years?
Gerry Graf: (26:47)
10 years. Yeah. Yeah.
Charles: (26:49)
So you had an extraordinary run. I mean, you were acclaimed and recognized and awarded and noted. Why did the agency close? Why did it not last longer?
Gerry Graf: (26:59)
When it was happening two years ago, I called it the perfect storm. But in the book, The Perfect Storm, I think only three things happened at the same time. There was like five things that happened at the same time. And it was just too much. We were born in the day of agency of record.
Things were changing, but it didn't change with us for a while. 70% of our revenue was from an agency of record standpoint, we did very few projects. And then that changed abruptly in one year, in '19, like everybody was going project and there were no more retainers. And, you know, I couldn't plan for a year anymore because I didn't know where the revenue was coming in.
So that affected us greatly. I had some top people, move on and leave. I replaced some people, and those people didn't work out. And I just decided to close up shop again. I was the only investor in the company and just decided 10 years was a good run.
I'm going to take a break, and try to come out and, you know, and do something new. So I did take a break. I didn't realize the world was going to go into quarantine. But last year when my family and I were up in Vermont and we were just kind of waiting the whole thing out, I did wonder what would have happened, what would Barton have been like if we were going through the pandemic, I don't know.
It was a very hard decision. The last year, we were profitable, but we didn't use any of the profits. We put everything back into the business and that didn't jumpstart us again. So I just decided, okay, great 10 year run. Maybe if it was happening at nine years, I would've stuck it out, but it felt like good, good.
You know, when people talk about the 2010s, they'll talk about Barton F. Graf, you know, in advertising.
Charles: (29:26)
Obviously that's a very, very tough set of circumstances and dynamic to go through. I mean, it's your company, your father's name is on the door. You poured your heart and soul into it. What are the lessons that you took away from that, that you're bringing forward?
Gerry Graf: (29:41)
The first lesson is the number one reason that I started Slap Global with Maxi Itzkoff. Even though I had a great set of partners at Barton, that I loved and I trusted, I was the majority owner and I was the majority investor.
And I wanted a full partner on this time around, and I wanted that person to be a creative person, so we could discuss business and we can discuss ideas together. That's one reason, I started Slap Global with Maxi. And then the other lessons, I would say I've always embraced change.
You know, doing something different is the number one brief every time you get a creative assignment, is do something different and move into a new space. And just to continue that, not only embrace change but maybe lead change.
Push for it and instead of accepting, okay, this is what it's like now, is move forward. Keep the overhead low. That's a huge lesson that I learned. And it's funny this pandemic and COVID has set up something really, really positive.
Maxi Itzkoff was the ECD at Saatchi Buenos Aires when I was ECD at Saatchi New York. And we met each other in these global creative director meetings that Kevin Roberts used to throw around the planet and we really got along together and we always tried to work together and Maxi almost came up to run the creative department at Barton, like around 2016, 2017.
But he just decided the move to New York from Buenos Aires was too much for him. So that didn't work out. And, we said, you know, we'll find a way to work together. And here we are. Slap Global started because Maxi had a project, you know, he was looking to start his own place down there.
He had a project, he needed some creative help. He called me up. He said, "Are you do anything?" I said, "No, let's work on it." So we did, we did it like we're doing right now. I got a call from a client, saying, "Hey, are you retired or do you want to do something?" And I said, "No," you know, it was Fox Sports, you know, I had a good relationship with them.
So he's like, "Do you have a crew?" I'm like, "Yeah, I got a crew." I call Maxi up. And I said, "Max, let's work on this. We need a great planner though." He's like, "Best planner I ever worked with is in Madrid." I'm like, "Get him on the screen." So three of us, we did this huge project for Fox Sports.
I said, "I think we're an agency." We were just messing around making side cash. But we were creating campaigns that were going viral that were real things. I said, "I think we're an agency." So we, you know, Maxi got a few more people. I got some people and we just kind of did it.
And it's been an incredible opportunity that I never had when I started Barton, which is, I can work with the most talented people in the world, because we're all used to doing this way. I used to be a traditionalist. I'm like, "No, you gotta sit in the same room. You gotta hash it out."
And you don't. It's been an incredible opportunity, what's happened in the last year.
Charles: (32:33)
There are so many people who are leading physical businesses, who are convinced that they need to get people back in the office, at least for some of the time, because it is an industry and a business that depends on human interaction.
As you said, you were a traditionalist, you are no longer that. How do you see that argument? Do you believe that there is some value in putting people back in the same room, or do you think you can achieve the same level of creativity by working completely virtually?
Gerry Graf: (33:04)
I think there'll be a hybrid. The way every great creative person I've ever met with is, there's always a come together, go away, come together, go away. You're with each other and then you need to go away for a couple of days or something like that. So, you know, we're living in the go away land now.
I think for some things it would be good to be able to walk out the door and go sit with somebody. But, even if COVID goes away tomorrow, there's no reason for me to fly down to Buenos Aires. But, Maxi is going to fly up to go to Miami for some personal stuff.
So, I'm going to get on a plane and go down there just to physically see him. Because I feel the need to see him and hug him and see if he's okay. So I don't think it would be all virtual. I think there is some reason, to be together.
I don't know if it's to get your work done though. I think it might just be a emotional or even like a spiritual thing, hey, this is a company, this is an entity. I've just been rolling with it and we'll see what happens.
Charles: (34:16)
I was talking to somebody last year. I think it might've been Nils Leonard actually, who said to me that he had found, certainly early in the pandemic, that there was actually benefit to having people working from home to some extent, maybe not all the time, but to some extent because it gave people actually a little bit of space and room to think that you don't often get in the traditional work dynamic and work environment.
Have you found that to be true on a personal level? I mean, you're obviously a highly creative person. Have you found the ability just to get away is helpful, or do you miss the social aspects or the societal connection of it?
Gerry Graf: (34:48)
I would say all of my personal ideas that I've written, not that teams that worked for me have done, but that I've been a part of almost always come when I'm away. I always have a… you know, it used to be a pad and a pen, you know. Now I use my Notes. But I would always have something with me because my great ideas come when I walk home.
I'd walk from Houston to 114th and Broadway just to have the ideas start popping out. So that's getting away. But those ideas from my subconscious don't start popping out unless I've been with people grinding on it and stuff like that or doing it.
So, I had a great creative partner a long time ago, Harold Einstein who is a director now. We would grind out some stuff and he would say, "Let's go get a cookie." Which meant, let's go down to Sixth Avenue, walk down to Mangia and get there just to get it out. Because one of the first books I read when I started this career was Ray Bradbury, I think it's The Zen of Writing.
Do all your research, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, and then stop, tell your subconscious the problem you want it to figure out and then stop thinking. Then ideas from nowhere start popping out of your head. That's my walk home. And I know for a fact that that works.
But you also need to put in the grind sometimes, either on here or with somebody. But getting away is insanely important, but you can't just float away. You have to be getting away from-
Charles: (36:25)
From something.
Gerry Graf: (36:25)
... from something.
Charles: (36:26)
Right. You need a connection to something to get away from it. That’s well put.
What has your relationship been with fear through your life?
Gerry Graf: (36:34)
Fear has always been a great motivator, for me. I was a fearful kid. I was very, very shy, you know, afraid to say anything and sound stupid. And fear of failure is why I'll work through a weekend and, ‘til 1:00 in the morning, on a Thursday, just push, push, push.
I've had enough success that doesn't happen. Now the fear is that the creative juices are gone. But again, it's a very positive thing because it forces me to look into every new creative thing that's happening to push myself, to feed my brain constantly.
But even when, even forever, I'll be trying to work with on an idea and never coming up with anything. And then I'm like, oh no, you know, Shakespeare stopped writing when he was 36, and I'm 50 for God sakes, you know, it's over, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I don't know, it's just fear has always motivated me.
It's not the healthiest thing in the world, but it's, it's, it's effective when managed, I believe.
Charles: (37:54)
Are you a risk taker?
Gerry Graf: (37:56)
I am. I am. I'll play the tape out, okay, I'm going to do this. Let's say the worst happens. And, I'm more of a risk taker now because I've... many things have happened in my life that I had identified as the worst thing in the world that could have ever happened. And they happened.
And I was still alive, and I still had a job and somebody would still hire me. So, yeah, I am a risk taker, and I think I'm a risk taker because a little bit of that fear of becoming stale.
Charles: (38:35)
How do you lead?
Gerry Graf: (38:38)
I lead by example. I lead by trying to put myself in the position of the people who work for me to understand where they're coming from. And I lead by what my great bosses, what they did for me. I remember, basically from Jeff and Rich, being taught how to be a creative director.
They would allow you to fail. You could fail once, you couldn't fail again, but you could fail. They would send you out on huge productions or they would give you assignment, just you and your partner, and one of the most important things in the agency.
And if you don't get it right, it would be horrible. And they would just go, "Here, take this responsibility and go nail it." And I remember that stuff. And I know everyone's not me, so what worked for me might not work for other people, but it was pretty effective.
And again, I try to be understanding. And the goal is always the same. There's never any politics that are paved when we're coming up with an idea. We're not trying to make anybody happy. We're not trying to keep accounts. We're not trying… we're just trying to get to an idea that no one else has done before. And I think that's a very effective motivator, for everybody.
Charles: (40:03)
And as you look at the future, what are you afraid of?
Gerry Graf: (40:08)
Nothing. I don't know. I don't look into the future that much. I look at today, what's got to be done today. And maybe I'll peek over ‘til tomorrow. I'm afraid, honestly, I'm afraid there'll be a time where I don't get to do this.
Like back in my twenties, when I sat in the Boston Common, I wanted to do something where every morning I woke up and I couldn't wait to start and I'm still there.
Charles: (40:34)
It's a pretty good reference point for life. I can't imagine how we haven't met before. And I'm very grateful to you for coming on the show today. Thanks so much for sharing, Gerry.
Gerry Graf: (40:43)
It was great talking with you and I want to talk with you more so I would hire you.
Charles: (40:47)
I appreciate that.
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