“The Pioneer”
This is my conversation with Trey Laird - the founder of Laird and Partners. His company works with many of the world’s most iconic fashion, beauty, and luxury, brands.
Trey is a pioneer. And as you’ll hear, he steps in to possibility.
Three Takeaways
Honesty about who you are.
Confront the problem.
Take the necessary steps.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 102: "The Pioneer" - Trey Laird
Hi. I’m Charles Day. And this is ‘Fearless Creative Leadership’.
This is my conversation with Trey Laird - the founder of Laird and Partners. His company works with many of the world’s most iconic fashion, beauty, and luxury, brands.
Trey is a pioneer. And as you’ll hear, he steps in to possibility.
And so I think I'm definitely one of those types of people like I just don't have time to play it safe every single second, and I'm okay that sometimes that might fail.
I read a survey this week about how leaders manage their time. Only half, said that the way they spent their time matched their organizations’ strategic priorities.
In my work, I see this all the time. Leaders who spend time on issues that have very little impact on the success of their business.
As leaders, why do we do that? Often, it’s because we’re drawn to things that we’re confident we can succeed at. We play it safe.
But there are two truths that sit at the heart of a successful creative business.
You’d better disrupt the status quo.
And you’d better do it in a hurry.
Which means that the biggest risk is not necessarily the fact you might fail. But that you might be wasting your time on something that doesn’t matter.
How are you spending your time this week?
Here’s Trey Laird.
Charles:
Trey, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Trey Laird:
Thanks for having me.
Charles:
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity being a thing?
Trey Laird:
Wow. I remember I was always interested in buildings and architecture. I didn't even think I understood what architecture was at the time, but I would always draw buildings and houses. I was probably in elementary school. And I remember my father who was a doctor was developing next to ... He also developed a hospital and next to it he was building an office building. And one weekend we went over to see the building going up and the plans were there. And I walked over to the plans, and I said, and I think I was maybe like 9 or 10, "This doesn't make sense. This doesn't look right like this." And I took the tracing paper and I drew what I thought it should be. And he said, "That's so much better." And they built it.
Charles:
They actually built your changes?
Trey Laird:
Yeah. I mean, it was like a one story medical office, like doctors’ offices, but still, I didn't know what it was. I just thought that didn't look right. It didn't make sense.
Charles:
And this was just instinctive?
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
Wow. That's amazing.
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
Did you follow that through? Did that become a thing?
Trey Laird:
I did. I mean, when I went to college, one of the things that I thought I really wanted to be was an architect. And funny enough, it was my dad that also said, "I don't think you should be an architect." Because I don't think he really fully understood the creative pleasure or the passion of that side of it. He looked at it more like a business. And he said, "You should be a businessman and that way you can develop buildings and even hire architects." So, he said, "A business degree." So anyway, I didn't pursue it. But anyway, in a funny way, now I dabble in architecture and what I do now has kind of combined all the things that I love.
Charles:
Do you wish you had?
Trey Laird:
Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes, when I see a really, really beautiful piece of architecture. It sparks something, but I'm a big admirer, big fan.
Charles:
What did you study at college?
Trey Laird:
Marketing. I got a business degree in marketing and a minor in art history. So it's this funny thing that I didn't know at the time, but it is kind of a little bit what I do now. Sort of mixes all of those things up.
Charles:
Yeah, it really is, actually.
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
What was your first job coming out of college?
Trey Laird:
My first job coming out of college was here in New York. I moved literally a week after I graduated, to New York.
Charles:
You grew up in?
Trey Laird:
I grew up in Texas. I went to school in Austin, at University of Texas and I came here really ... I traveled a little bit that summer but was here very soon after. And I got a job in the account management training program at BBDO.
Charles:
Wow.
Trey Laird:
Which at that point was a little bit like ... I mean, it was like a thing. I guess it still is the thing, BBDO. They're like Pepsi and all that kind of stuff. It's like a big establishment ad agency. And I think it was a little bit of like a glorified internship. You'd go to different ... account management, production, you'd move around and sort of learn the different divisions. And whenever it started, one month. So I was here and I had like two months. And my parents said, "Well, you're not going to just spend two months in New York City. Thank you very much. So … get a job." And this is a long story. So I'll try to give you the short version. But at Bergdorf Goodman, at that time, the men's shoe department was a concession that was run called To Boot, and it was run by these two guys that were from Texas.
So whenever I'd come to New York, and I buy a pair of shoes beforehand, I would send them back to Texas. So they knew me and they knew I was from Texas. And I've always loved clothes and all that sort of stuff. So anyway, I went in one day to buy a pair of shoes, and I said, "Oh, I just moved here. Whenever I'm here for a couple months." One thing led to another and all of a sudden I had a job. And he said, "You should work here." And I said, "I've never worked in a store." And he said, "It's okay. You really understand shoes."
Charles:
Wow.
Trey Laird:
So I started selling men shoes at Bergdorf Goodman, like three days later.
Charles:
And that was your entree into the fashion business, is that right?
Trey Laird:
So that was where it gets better. So I started selling these men's shoes at Bergdorf Goodman and thinking, "Okay, a couple months later I'll start at BBDO and do my big advertising entrance into the world." And about three weeks later a guy came in called Peter Arnell.
Charles:
Oh my God. Really?
Trey Laird:
And Peter Arnell, is like this legendary guy and at that point, he was like the boutique, upstart, cool fashion-y agency. And I didn't really know who he was but I'd read a couple articles and seen a couple of things and really admired a few things that he did, but I didn't ... I was so young at that point. I didn't even understand really how the industry worked or anything, but I knew who this guy was, and so he came in and he bought a pair of shoes. At the end I gave him his credit card back and just said, "I just want to introduce myself. I'm just graduated from college. I'm about to start this agency job and I just really admire what you do and it's nice to meet you."
And he looked at me and said, "What are you going to do?" And I said, I'm a bit of a proud white blond, “I'm starting with the account management training program at BBDL." "That's the stupidest thing that you could do." I was like, "Okay." And so I was kind of stunned and he said, "You should come down and see me." So I went down and met him a few days later. And a week later, I was the assistant assistant account manager on the brand new Donna Karan account. Donna had just started her company. And I never went to BBDO after that.
Charles:
Trey, that's a crazy story.
Trey Laird:
It's 100% true.
Charles:
What do you think ... Maybe a hard question, but what do you think? I mean, that's two instances within a month of people seeing something and said, "I want you to come and be part of what I'm doing." Right?
Trey Laird:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
What do you think that was? What do you think they saw?
Trey Laird:
I don't know. I mean, sometimes it's funny. Sometimes people see things in you before you see them in yourself. Not always the case, sometimes you're the first person that knows. But I think, especially when you're young, and you're trying to figure yourself out, I think sometimes it takes people ... I mean, Peter is a very controversial person in the industry, but brilliant, and definitely saw something in me way before I saw it myself. So I owe him a lot and will always be grateful and admire what he's done and what he created. But I started there as an account executive. And I thought that's what I was going to do. And I sort of had a good creative eye and I had pretty good taste and that sort of thing. But I really thought that's what I do and then the creative people, the art directors do all the other stuff.
And then I went to the agency and after a few months, Peter one day said, "You shouldn't be an account executive, you should be in the creative department." And so he's the one that sort of put me there and I went kicking and screaming, I was super intimidated. There were all these major hot shots, from Italian Vogue and from Art Center and all these major arts directors at the time and I was this kid, I was like 23 years old, or 22. So I don't know. I think sometimes it takes somebody to see something in you and we all need those champions. Our live mentors or people that see something and push you, show you a path, are generous with their time. Everybody needs that.
Charles:
So what was that transition like for you? I mean, interesting that you had such an emotional resistance to it. Do you think that was the voice of your father in the background saying, “Don't do this; be that,”?
Trey Laird:
Maybe yeah. A little bit of that. But I think also it's just something I hadn't really tapped into yet. I always knew I had a creative side to me, but I never sort of explored that or never really opened up that possibility. I always just almost saw it as a side thing, and then I had to really focus and get to business. And maybe that was just the way I was raised or what the expectation was at the time or what most people did, what most of my friends did.
Charles:
Did you have brothers and sisters?
Trey Laird:
I have brothers and sisters. I have three sisters and one brother. I'm the oldest.
Charles:
What did they do?
Trey Laird:
Different things. I have one sister that's here in New York who works for Ralph Lauren. Has worked for Ralph for a long time in marketing. I have another sister that works for a company called Rackspace. That's a server cloud and she's like a major person there and is like a super woman and has kids and does everything and more before everybody even wakes up. I have another sister that's a mom in San Antonio. And then I have a brother who builds houses in Fort Worth.
Charles:
Oh, wow. So really diverse, actually.
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
And you are the oldest?
Trey Laird:
I'm the oldest. Yeah. So they were all young when I left. So-
Charles:
So probably an expectation on you had to go.
Trey Laird:
I think yeah, I think sometimes, at that time, I just felt like I was going to be somehow in business and trying to figure out. And for some reason, advertising to me, at that time, represented a mix between creativity and business, even if I was entering it through a business door. And so I'd never really even thought about the possibility of fully exploring the creative side. I just never even knew that was an option. So I really … I'm serious when I say I owe a lot to Peter, because he pushed me. And I think at first it was just more sort of the fear factor or the intimidation of all these people that were so talented and so experienced, and I really admired what they did and it was so inspiring to be around them.
Charles:
Do you remember the point at which you realized you could compete with that?
Trey Laird:
Yeah, there were a couple of things. I remember there was a ... Part of this too is, it's like any skill. You have to practice. I'm super involved in fitness and my best friend is a coach. And one of the things he says everyday to everybody that trains with us is, "It's all practice. You practice and you practice and you practice and you build something and then you take it out for spin and sort of compete. But everyday is really about building and practice." So looking back on that, I think that's what I was doing, but I just didn't understand it at the time. So I was learning and practicing.
And yeah, I remember one time, I hadn't been in the creative side that long, but it’s when Donna Karan was going to launch her first fragrance. And it was very controversial at the time because she decided to do it independently. She and her husband. So they didn't do a license, which most people do. They built a beauty company, which was quite an expensive undertaking, and later sold it to Estee Lauder and still a very successful fragrance today. But at that point, that was just being created, and we decided to create it as an entirely independent brand experience. And so it was a big project that was several months. And Peter gave me that to run. And I remember that was the time that I really felt like, "Okay, I can kind of see how to do this." And I was really inspired and really just poured my whole self into it and it became a big success and I was very proud of it. And yeah, that was the thing I probably remember the clearest.
Charles:
What did you learn from watching Donna and her husband put the business together?
Trey Laird:
Well, I think so many things. Stephen Weiss, Donna's husband, was an incredible mentor to me, and someone I admired and loved very much. Donna as well, I'm still very close to Donna. And she's also somebody that saw something in me early on, that I hadn't seen yet myself. So I've had a series of these people. I have been very lucky. They're like my guardian angels throughout my career and life. So Stephen, I think was kind of Donna's sort of ... They were like Yin and Yang. They were very complimentary. And it was a really incredible relationship, partnership on so many levels. But I think what I learned, is that you don't have to do things the way they've always been done. And that sounds like such a simple thing. But I still think about it everyday.
And I think to just be able to instill in you that challenging sort of mindset, to not just go along, and because someone always shoots something in a certain way or someone always sets up an event in a certain sort of way, or this is just the way it's done, or even when people just come in with that mindset that it's so status quo, it becomes a follower mentality. And it doesn't mean that you have to live your life as this disruptor and this rebel. I don't mean in that extreme, but just in a way to think about something different and really look beyond the obvious. And again, that may sound really different, but I think that's a skill too, that you have to always keep developing and always keep at the front of your mind. And it serves me right now in things I'm working on today. And so I think that's one of the key experiences where that came up and I really thought, "Okay, the history of all great fashion houses, certainly all the big French ones, was always through fragrance." And we were in a time that was everything was licensed.
And Stephen and Donna really looked back to Chanel. It's just still arguably the greatest fashion house in the world and she started her own fragrance and it became the lifeblood of that company. That's what served that company well when the company was kind of on hard times, pre-Wertheimers, pre-Lagerfeld way back. And so I think they looked at that and took inspiration from that and just thought, "Okay, we're not necessarily just going to sign a big fragrance license and kind of develop a bottle and put our name on it." So it was fearless and bold and inspiring. And again, I didn't even fully understand what I was learning at the time, but now I look back at it and think, "Wow, that was such a big lesson."
Charles:
I mean, such a massive decision to your point, right? I mean, the investment-
Trey Laird:
Huge.
Charles:
-the risk factor-
Trey Laird:
Everybody told them not to do it.
Charles:
Really?
Trey Laird:
Every single person.
Charles:
What do you think gave them the confidence or the courage or the kind of the ability to look into the future and say, "This is the right way for us."
Trey Laird:
I think they were those types of people. I mean, Donna's incredibly intuitive, and usually way ahead of her time. So a lot of times people say she's crazy. She's not crazy at all.
Charles:
Here's to the crazy ones. The misfits, right?
Trey Laird:
Yes. Exactly that's right. Exactly. Yeah. And we all know where that came from, that line. It's ingrained in your mind, if you know anything about advertising. So yeah, I mean, I think it's trust your intuition, trust your gut and I think that serves you well usually.
Charles:
Do you live by that today?
Trey Laird:
I do. I do. I try as much ... I don't think anybody 100% can ever do it. I think it's, again, like practice. It's a desired state. It's a state that you want to ultimately get to.
Charles:
Right. Self-actualization.
Trey Laird:
Yeah. Exactly. So I'm working on it. I'm a work in progress. But yes, that's the goal.
Charles:
And hard when you have the responsibility of your own business. I mean, that's when you look at the decision like the one she and her husband made. And really value how significant a decision that was, with everything that was at stake around that.
Trey Laird:
Yeah, absolutely.
Charles:
It's hard to understand that until you've been, I think, in that situation with your business.
Trey Laird:
Yeah, absolutely. And then I think you also have to be flexible too and that sometimes you make a decision, it serves you well for a certain time and then it's time to move on and make the next decision. Or you can adjust and learn from what maybe didn't work and that's okay. And-
Charles:
Did she take counsel?
Trey Laird:
She did; I think she had a very small group of people that she trusted. And yeah, she did. If she loved you and trusted you and you were in her inner circle. There's no better person to have in your corner. Nobody.
Charles:
What was the next stage of your career evolution? Where did you go from there?
Trey Laird:
So I stayed with Peter for almost six years, maybe a little over six years, incredible experience. It was like boot camp, grad school, training ground. All those things sort of rolled into one. But it was time to maybe do something else. And there was an Italian company at the time in New York called Grupo GFT. And it was a big Italian conglomerate that made primarily tailored clothing for all the big Italian designers, Armani, Valentino, Ungaro, all these different brands. And they were setting up internal creative department in the New York office. And so I got recruited to run that and did that for about two years, hated it. I thought-
Charles:
Oh, really?
Trey Laird:
-it was corporate and I just felt like I was in some divisional office of a company that was somewhere else which I was.
Charles:
Was it hard leaving Peter?
Trey Laird:
It was. It was very emotional and very hard. And we were quite close. And he's like a god to me. And so it was really hard. But I knew it was time that I needed to go on to do my next thing. So yeah, so that was kind of my first little taste of independence, and I hated it. And about a year and a half later, funny enough, Donna called me and said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "I'm working for this Italian company that make suits, and I hate it." And she said, "Well, I want to talk to you because I want to build what Calvin has." And at that time, Calvin had this in-house agency called CRK.
Charles:
Yeah.
Trey Laird:
And they still do quite a lot in-house, but I don't know that it's officially called CRK anymore, but at that point, CRK was kind of like the thing and it was quite innovative at the time for Calvin to have that. And Ralph had a pretty big internal agency but still worked with an outside agency, which I think was called Carlson at the time, they had a legendary long partnership. And Donna and Peter had just kind of come to an end with their relationship. And she remembered me from her past and wanted me to come in and start an in-house creative agency. And I was still young enough and naive enough at the time, so I was like, "Okay, that's a good idea."
Charles:
That sounds great.
Trey Laird:
And so I literally went in and they had this one room and there was room and somebody came in and brought me a phone. And then somebody, like the assistant to the CEO, came in and said, "Can I get you anything?" And so I'm like, "Okay, I've got to do this from scratch." And I had no idea how to do it. But I thought, "Okay, I'm going to figure it out." And I did. And I was still in my mid-20s. It was really early for me. So slowly, step by step, we built advertising, marketing, all the packaging, store design, so my architecture sort of love came back to haunt me and started building that into even some product design groups. Like one year they signed a license to do watches. And Donna said something ... and the company Fossil was based in Dallas. So Donna said, "I don't know anything about watches. You love watches and you're from Texas. So you do it." So I'm like, "Okay."
Charles:
Perfect [inaudible].
Trey Laird:
So I started designing watches. So I don't know, somehow I've had a series of these things. But we started to build a team and got to be about 60 people at its height. And it was incredible because it took me in a totally different path. Had I built my career in an ad agency, I think somehow when I look at my colleagues that have had that career and incredible careers, so many of them, but it somehow all becomes about advertising. And for me, it's never been about advertising. That's one part. And I do that every day in some way shape or form. But it's never the point. I think it's always just one part of a bigger story. And when you look at a brand like Nike, the shoe box is cool or important or says something about that brand as much as the ad, as much as the Nike Town, as much as the athlete they endorse, as much as the cool experiential event or whatever and all those hundreds of decisions that add up to it.
And somehow, when you work in-house, you see that differently, because it's all important and you're juggling it all. And you have to design a new label, and then there's a show that night that you have to produce and then yes, you have to get an ad out, but then there's a new packaging thing required and then you have to sign an ambassador or whatever. It's all important.
Charles:
Well, and I think to that point, until fairly recently, right? Within the advertising agency industry, when you're working directly with a brand, the challenge is, move the needle on the business. Right? What do we have to do to make that happen?
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
When you, until probably the last five years, at an ad agency, the challenge has been, make the ad.
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
It's a different set of problems. And the problem is kind of predefined for you.
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
I think it's changing now pretty rapidly and that other companies are addressing that.
Trey Laird:
Yeah, it is with all the content and generation and the different platforms and social media, and all the things that have happened in the last decade or so, it's changed it a lot. But I still think there's been that history of sort of ad guys or ad agencies that love an ad concept. It's really about the great advertising and I've never been one of those guys.
Charles:
You were never a madman?
Trey Laird:
I was never a madman. Yeah. And it's easy, you go speak at a conference or something or somebody wants to write something about you and they love to put that little thing, like, the madman of fashion or whatever it is, but I just never related to that. Not that I don't admire it and not that it's super inspiring in so many ways, but it was just never personally how I saw myself.
Charles:
Yeah. So you built the in-house agency at Donna Karan?
Trey Laird:
So I built the in-house agency at Donna Karan.
Charles:
Extraordinary experience.
Trey Laird:
It was incredible. I was there for 10 years. It was when that company went from, I don't know, must have been like 75, 80, $90 million to close to a billion dollars. LVMH bought it. At that point, I think, in the 90s, Donna Karan was certainly the fastest growing American fashion house. Donna was certainly the most important female designer in the world but joined the ranks of the Donna, Calvin, Ralph, one name American icons.
Charles:
For sure.
Trey Laird:
And so it was incredible to see. And again, when you're in it, you don't even really fully realize what's going on. But you knew you were on a freight train and DKNY became a household brand. And it was an incredible time, and I owe so much to Donna and Stephen. So LVMH bought the company and it was a little bit of a different culture at that point. And again, sort of thinking about 10 or 11 years, what's my next thing, and I kept getting a call from this guy Mickey Drexler. And I had never met Mickey but certainly knew who he was, obviously, one of the greatest American merchants of all time, and had been at the Gap and just did such legendary things there and totally made that company a cultural force. Invented Old Navy from scratch, which is now bigger than the Gap. Anyway, so Mickey's incredible, but I'd never met him, but I kept kind of getting a call like, "Mickey wants to meet with you. He's thinking about wanting a new creative director out there and will you talk to him." So I said, "Okay, well, I'll talk." And telling Donna the whole time everything like she's my mom, at this point I'm like, "I'm going to talk to Mickey Drexler." She's like, "Why are you talking to him?" "Like I'm just telling you-
Charles:
Because you sold the company to LVMH.
Trey Laird:
Exactly. Anyway, so Mickey and I had had a fast sort of fall in love friendship. And he kept trying to get me to move to San Francisco. And I really loved Mickey. And I really loved the opportunity to work with him. But I didn't want to move to San Francisco. So it was a really hard call to make when I finally decided that I was not going to take that job. Because it wasn't even San Francisco. I felt like it would be doing the same thing I was doing just on a much bigger scale, which was interesting, and most people would have probably done it. But it didn't feel right to me. I wanted to do something different.
So, I called Mickey and said, "I love you. I think you're amazing. I would love to work with you one day, you're so inspiring. I get you. I'd love that, but I can't take this position. It's not the right thing for me. But what I have decided is I'm going to leave Donna Karan and I'm going to do my own thing. I don't know how I'm going to figure it out. But maybe one day when I get up and going, maybe if you have a baby Gap project or something, give me a call." And he called me right back and he said, "I want you to do all the Gap ads."
Charles:
Just like that.
Trey Laird:
And I said, "Mickey, I haven't even resigned yet. I'm at my desk at Donna Karan." And he said, "Well, you better get busy." And he hung up the phone.
Charles:
Better get busy?
Trey Laird:
Yeah. And so I just kind of sat there at my desk kind of stunned for a minute, like at that point Gap was certainly the largest apparel account in the world. Probably one of the biggest clothing brands. It's different now. It's, whatever, 20 years later, but that point, the Gap was major, and Gap ads were legendary. So I thought, "Oh, my God, like, I just got all the Gap account and I'm sitting here at my desk at Donna Karan and I've got a meeting I have to go into." So I went and talked to Donna. And Donna said, "Well, if you're going to leave and you're going to do Mickey, you're going to definitely do all my stuff too. So you have Donna Karan account too." And I said, "I don't even have a company." She said, something basically, "Mickey told you to get busy.” She’d always talk about shoulders, “You've got big shoulders, you can handle it." And so it's kind of that's how I launched my agency. It was like, again, you couldn't make it up. You could never plan it. You have people in your life.
Charles:
Here are two iconic global pieces business, get going.
Trey Laird:
Exactly. So I figured it out. So within a week, I had some of my core team sort of come over, I subleased a space from the Donna Karan company building, 550 Seventh Avenue, I subleased a floor for a year, and was up and going within 30 days. Crazy.
Charles:
How did you even begin to react to this? I mean, how quickly did you start to just solve the problem? I mean, most people I think would freeze in that situation.
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
How quickly did you just start?
Trey Laird:
It's funny. I'm really good in those situations when everything's falling apart, or there's a crisis or there's a deadline or whatever, somehow I get super calm and really focused. And I just somehow kind of see, again I told you my really good buddy, my best friend is a coach, a trainer. And so he teaches on a bike. And he tells me he looks across the room at all the bikes that he's teaching and it's like, he doesn't see people, he sees a pattern. And so it's like a pattern of movement. And when somebody is off of that pattern, he knows that that person is struggling or has an issue or needs help or whatever.
And so for me, it's kind of similar in what I do. I look at things and all the sudden I see things, like multiple steps, I just somehow can see it. So sometimes it can be a campaign that we're working on, we're trying to come up with an idea and when I have it all of a sudden is like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and I can see it over the next few years, what's going to happen. And it's sometimes a flash. It's weird. And it doesn't always happen. Sometimes it comes up dry. And you think, "Oh, God, where's my flash? I need it-”
Charles:
Quick.
Trey Laird:
But some of my greatest account relationships or client relationships have always ... I worked for a long time at Gap with this incredible woman named Kyla Andrew, who I've worked with in multiple companies since and she'll always tease me she'll always say, "When the light goes off, I know that you're onto something. And so I'm just waiting for the light to go off. So tell me when it goes off." and I'm like, "It's coming. I'm working on it." So anyway, I don't know I'm really ... So to answer your question, I'm good in those situations. I'm not good in all situations, but in those situations, I'm pretty good. And so I just rally and I get it together and get the troops organized. And I think there's a little bit of that sort of fearlessness that I responded to with Donna and Stephen that I told you about.
Charles:
So could you see what your company was going to look like? I mean-
Trey Laird:
I could, yeah.
Charles:
Very quickly.
Trey Laird:
I knew what I wanted it to look like. And I knew what the opportunity was, and I knew how I wanted to go about it. And at that point in quote-unquote fashion, there were fashion agencies that weren't considered advertising agencies. They were fashion agencies. And no sort of mainstream agency had ever succeeded in fashion ever, and whenever they tried, it was just an embarrassing disaster and still is, for the most part. So there were these fashion agencies that were really cool and did amazing beautiful things, but they were really art directors that had a team around them and it was like an art direction sort of practice or service or agency or that type of thing. And in fashion, art direction decisions are huge. Sometimes that can make or break the success of something. But it was very much about art direction. And brands would hire you to do a shoot at that point it was way before a lot of moving image or you do a fragrance commercial or that type of thing or consult in a fragrance bottle, but very much art direction.
And then at mainstream agencies, it was much more conceptually driven and very much sort of brand strategy oriented. Sometimes you'd have great conceptual skills, then the execution could be iffy depending on the agency, whether it looked right or not, but I just didn't understand why it had to be either or. Like why could something look really good, but not have an idea behind it? Or why could you then have an idea and not have it look good? I didn't understand why you couldn't put the two together. And maybe again, that's my brain the way it was, marketing and art history or business and creative. I just wanted to put them together.
So for me, I always start with, what are we trying to solve for? What's the business goal? What's the brief? What's the strategy? How can we be true to the brand? What's the idea that solves the business problem? And then what's the right creative execution to bring that idea to life? And that's still today what I do. And that's how we set up the agency and so all of a sudden, it became different than any other fashion agency. So I think that served as well and was able to give us a little traction.
Charles:
So you talked about when you're at your best. Where do you struggle?
Trey Laird:
Gosh, there's a lot. I think patience, I think is always something I need to practice more when you talk about-
Charles:
Because you can see where you're trying to get to and other people can't.
Trey Laird:
Yeah, and sometimes it's patience. I think that could be with a team, that could be with the client, that could be in life, that could be with yourself. Yeah, sometimes you see what you want it to be or you see what it's going to be, but to get there and to get everybody with you on that boat, all paddling in the same direction is sometimes just-
Charles:
Really frustrating.
Trey Laird:
-really frustrating.
Charles:
Yeah.
Trey Laird:
And so I struggle with that sometimes. Not in a hothead, lose it sort of way but it just really gets to me. So like, "Why can't you see it? I see it so clear." So that's something I still have to work on. That's probably the biggest thing I think. I don't know. I'm organized in my own organized way. Some of my former assistants would probably highly disagree with you, some of my family members would disagree with you but somehow I get a lot done, but I have my own little system of the way I do it. So that's debatable whether that's something I struggle with.
Charles:
What kind of people do you look to hire?
Trey Laird:
I like people that are entrepreneurial, that are independent thinkers, that have some sort of curiosity or some sort of spark to them. I think immediately, pretty much when you interview somebody or meet somebody, you can kind of tell if they're sort of more of a follower and just kind of go along and don't really question and again, I think sometimes that's misinterpreted as, on the other side, trying to think that somebody is a real rebel spirit or just tries to be disruptive everyday, and we all know those kind of people too. It's just almost, that's their sort of purpose in life, is to be difficult, or to be disruptive. So I've never been really responded to those people.
It's some of the people that have that fire, and I see it sometimes in young people that I'll hire, somebody that you'll work with ten young creatives and eight of them just don't even understand what you're saying. And just want you to say, “What do you want me to do? Or what else should I do today? Or tell me where to put this.” And just give you the most mediocre sort of thing. And there are two that kind of start to get it or they don't even understand they get it, but they know that there's something to get. And then they start to build. And it's really rewarding to see that.
Charles:
I'm always interested talking to founders of businesses, because most founder-driven businesses, I think it's fair to say, especially in the creative industries, have a very hard time moving beyond the founder. How do you look at that? How do you think about the next stage of this company without you being either as involved or involved at all? Do you have a vision for that?
Trey Laird:
Yeah, I mean, we've got an incredible team of people here. Many have been with me for 20 years, 15 years, 10 years, and so there's a really tight group of people here that we do certain things a certain way. And I think they've sort of learned that, contributed to being part of that success. And there are a lot of things that I don't touch here, there are a lot of accounts that sort of exist on their own. So there's a big part that's very dependent on me, and that I drive and have my hand in, but it's not all that. So I think this place without me is probably going to be a different place, but hopefully, it can still thrive and be successful. So I think, again, it's that sort of thing that I mentioned before about being flexible and understand that things have to evolve, and what was maybe right for something a decade ago isn't necessarily the right thing now. And I think also keeping yourself inspired. There are things that I want to do and other paths that I want to explore, and you've got to keep yourself going and constantly sort of have all the fires lit and inspired and pushing and challenging.
Charles:
What inspires you now? What do you look for? Where do you look to, I should say.
Trey Laird:
I think other categories that have an intersection in my life, fitness being one. And so I'm really interested in fitness, but trying to bring sort of everything I've built and everything that I love and everything I'm good at to that category, in an interesting way, is something that I'm thinking a lot about. And yeah, so things like that, I think it's funny, I've had another person that was a great friend and in some way is a mentor, we're the same age. So not in like a age mentorship, but just an advice type of person is Natalie Massenet, the founder of Net-a-Porter, who's incredible and a force and just an incredible person. And the first time I met her, I had to show her this project I'd done for Karl Lagerfeld. And they were considering launching it on Net-a-Porter and so I should now lead this whole sort of like brand presentation I did about Karl. And she liked it, she was impressed with it.
And so we got to know each other and worked on several projects. And she kept saying to me, "You've built your whole career building brands for other people, you should build a brand for yourself." And I kind of looked at her and sometimes you just so busy doing what you do everyday and you don't really think about doing your own thing. And so, I don't know, I thought about that a lot. And so every time I'd see her she'd say, "Have you done it yet? Have you done it yet? What's your idea?" And for the first, I don't know, a year or so whenever I'd see her, I'd say "I'm not sure. I don't know what I want to do." She's like, "You know exactly what you want to do. You always know that. So just listen. And so it's kind of like being open to what your passions are."
Charles:
Such good advice.
Trey Laird:
Yeah. That was great advice. I know, I'm telling you, I've had so many incredible people that have been supportive to me, or generous with their advice to me, and part of it is just being open to listening.
Charles:
Yeah, for sure. I think that's part of it. What else do you think draws people to you?
Trey Laird:
I don't know. I mean, that's a hard question to answer about yourself.
Charles:
Yeah.
Trey Laird:
I don't know. I try to be myself. And again, that's something that sounds so obvious, but I tell that to my kids, I think you can't be anybody else. It's such a basic thing to say. But inevitably, all of us go through long periods of time where we're trying to be something else in some way, shape or form. And sometimes it's good things, I'm trying to achieve something, so I'm going to manifest it. But other times, it's bad things, you're not being authentic. So, I think that sort of a goal is like to reach this complete authenticity, and maybe that's a process of getting there as well.
Charles:
One of the things I've always been struck about by you and this conversation has sort of added to that, is that you're very comfortable dealing with people who are famous, celebrities. You have a lot of intimate relationships. I know you've mentioned Donna obviously in your backstory, and I know you're very close to Tommy Hilfiger.
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
How do you see those people? How are you able to develop that kind of intimacy and trust and mutual respect with people that a lot of people hold in reference?
Trey Laird:
Yeah. Well, I think a couple things. First and foremost, I've had a lot of practice at it from very early on in my career, it just was sort of like that's ... You go into a meeting and that's who you're dealing with. Some people are dealing with whatever, people in a company or something, but I'd go into a meeting and it would be like, a rock star or an actress or whatever, and that was my client or a superstar designer, or whatever. So part of its practice and just being used to it and comfortable in that environment, but I think much bigger than that, is just dealing with those people as people. And I think again, this sounds simple, but I think there's that kind of expression like star fucker. And so I just think that those types of people that get so hung up with the idea of celebrity, it becomes really hard to either ever have a true friendship or a close productive business relationship if that's the thing in the room. And it doesn't mean you can't be aware of it and certainly in many cases, you have to figure out how to harness that power, because that's part of what you're dealing with or what you're selling.
But they're all people. And they all ... I mean, I remember the first time I met Beyonce, and did many years of projects with Beyonce, but I went into Beyonce and her mother, and I said, "Hello," and introduced myself. And her mother said, "Where are you from?" She heard my accent. And I said, "Well, I'm from Texas. I was born in Houston." She says, "So am I." She was from Louisiana. But Beyonce was born in Texas. And my mother and my father are both from Louisiana, so we start talking about Louisiana and Texas. So that's how I met Beyonce and her mother Tina. And so I think honestly, the reason they hired me is because I was from Texas and my parents were from Louisiana. And then the ideas were okay. And we got along creatively, but I think honestly-
Charles:
“He’s one of us.”
Trey Laird:
-it just felt comfortable that we're from the same place. And I had a funny accent.
Charles:
And I get the sense that you're not overtly looking for something from them. I mean, you want to work with them, right?
Trey Laird:
Yeah.
Charles:
But you're not looking for that relationship to define you in some way.
Trey Laird:
You can't. You have to be confident in yourself, and you have to know that you're there for a reason. There's a great joy in working with them many times, but then also there's a need to work with you and you have a value and I think you just have to somehow figure out how to keep that. First and foremost is not this subservient thing. Like, I think if you go in and you meet Beyonce and the first thing you say is, "Oh my God, I've loved you ever since and can I have a picture with you? You're just amazing, you changed my life in that song." You just think, how many times a day that being Beyonce and as incredible as it is to be Beyonce. It's amazing that she affects all these people, but they don't really get beyond the fact that it's Beyonce they're meeting or it's Beyonce they're seeing in a concert. "Oh my god, it's Beyonce. Let me take a picture."
But I think when you sit down and you really think about her as a person, and you talk about where you're from, and what you are doing and what are your goals, what's going on with you or what are you trying to achieve? How can I help you? What are your thoughts, ideas? Then it starts becoming you're talking to a person.
Charles:
I think that's so right. And so well put, I remember vividly being invited to a dinner many years ago now that was really a who's who of entertainment music worlds, media worlds, real celebrities, right? And I was sitting at dinner next to James Brooks, who created “The Mary Tyler Moore Show” among others. And my wife and I fell in love to “The Mary Tyler Moore Show” which was one of the connections, we still watch it, right, at night?
Trey Laird:
It's brilliant.
Charles:
It's incredible, right? Absolutely extraordinary. And I sat there at dinner having a very normal conversation, trying to remember that it's just a human being. And at the end of dinner, I said to him, "I just have to tell you, right, Mary Tyler Moore," and in that instant, his whole attitude towards me changed because, "Oh, here we go. Another one." Right? And I was so sad because it didn't mean anything to him, that that show had had such a profound impact on me. But you're right, they just get tired of listening to that stuff. I mean, they don't want to be seen through that lens. They want you to engage with them, right?
Trey Laird:
Some of my closest friendships happened in my career, became really really great friends with people that I would have never even imagined being friends with. But it's because there's a human connection.
Charles:
Yeah, so interesting. As you look forward now to the company, the industry, your life, what do you see the next five years looking like?
Trey Laird:
Well, I'm trying to think of the best way to answer that. It's a complicated one to answer. I mean, I think it's such a transformative time, obviously, I think in every industry. It's just the way you connect with customers and the way you have to tell a product story, and even what products people are interested in what matters to them. I think it's all being redefined and it's just a really transformative industry. So part of it is just being aware of that and open to it and having that affect where you go. So I think we're trying to apply that as much as we can here with what we do and I don't even think about us as a really an advertising agency anymore. As I said before, I never truly did.
Charles:
Yeah.
Trey Laird:
But you get kind of classified as that. But I think of it more of like a brand partner kind of helping brands figure out what's their best way to communicate and tell their story. And whatever that is, that could be an event, that could be a social media thing, that could be an ad campaign, that could be an alliance with a partner, like the Tommy, Gigi thing. I mean, that was a perfect example of solving a business problem. That's how that came about. And it was very much based on that alliance. And I think the creative was pretty good. But the idea is what was great and transformative for that company. And then the advertising was kind of like, "Okay, fine, that's just something that needs to activate it."
But it was the it that really transformed it. So I think just being aware of those types of things, and having that guide us for the next few years, I think is going to be key here. And then for me, personally, I think, again, as I said, I'm really interested in other things, as well, and figuring out how I can take everything that I've built and learned and love and sort of go out and apply that maybe to other categories, and maybe have a little bit bigger hand in it.
Charles:
What's your relationship with fear?
Trey Laird:
With fear?
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Trey Laird:
Ooh, we have a rocky relationship me and fear. Yeah, I mean it's one of those like what's the thing that Superman … the kryptonite?
Charles:
At kryptonite? Yeah.
Trey Laird:
Yeah. So fear I think sometimes it's like kryptonite a little bit to me. I'm not so good with it. So I can't sit here and say, "Oh, I'm fearless." I have fearless tendencies, like I will just launch my company. I don't feel like I have to research it for many ... It's just one of those things, like Mickey was the type of person who's like, “By the time people get around finishing their focus group, I've already figured out that it worked or didn't work because I did it,” and he’s like, “I'll take that more of them worked than not.” And so I think I'm definitely one of those types of people like I just don't have time to like play it safe every single second and I'm okay that sometimes that might fail. So that part of fear I'm really good at but I think personally just always trying to tap into your confidence self and always trying to tap into your best self is something that again, it's like practice and you're not always going to just automatically show up that way. So I think I'm trying to kind of always get better at that, is how I deal a little bit with that. I try to keep beating down fear.
Charles:
So, do you feel like fear is one of those things you have to overcome?
Trey Laird:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know if you're supposed to say that, but it's true.
Charles:
No, it's interesting, actually. Because when I started this series of podcasts, I walked in with a very one-dimensional view of fear and the relationship of leadership. And I thought it was exactly that for everybody. Because it certainly has been for me, that is the thing that you have to overcome. And what I've learned is that there are actually four different relationships people have with fear. There is that which is obviously present for many people. Some people use it as a catalyst, right? Fear of, "Oh my god, this isn't enough. Or it's not sustainable." Some people use it as a measurement or a reference point. They say, "If I'm not afraid, I'm not doing anything that’s interesting enough." And I see that. And then, in many ways the most dangerous if you come across somebody who says, “I'm not afraid of anything,” right, because that's when the whole thing is up for grabs.
Trey Laird:
Yes, yeah. Exactly.
Charles:
Because there's no parameters.
Trey Laird:
And I don't know if I 100% ever believe that when someone says that. But I think sometimes it is about using it. I think, probably, I'm more in the bucket of the catalyst, that it becomes almost fuel, and you somehow face what you're afraid of to power you through things.
Charles:
And you're proving to yourself something in that moment?
Trey Laird:
Yeah, I think so. Absolutely. Or you look back at it, and you did.
Charles:
Yeah. So you raise yourself a little bit as a result?
Trey Laird:
Yeah. I think for me, where I've been able to overcome it is, I don't let it hold me back. I may have to adjust and sort of work my way through it. So it's not an immediate thing, but somehow you can't let it paralyze you. And you got to work through it. So that part I've been pretty good with, it's still something that's an ongoing thing, but that part I’ve figured out. But the idea to just say I'm not afraid of anything is, I think, probably not 100% honest.
Charles:
Right. How do you lead?
Trey Laird:
By example, I guess, is probably the answer that's the most common, but it's true. I think you have to be willing to work harder than everybody and then if you're going to ask people to work hard, then you can't just be at the beach. And so I've always been a hard worker and I'm certainly not afraid to work hard. And it drives me and inspires me and fuels me. So, that's part of it. So I think my team always senses that. And try to inspire. I think that's one of the things that it's been sort of part of my role. It's part of my job to inspire people. And I don't mean in a lofty way, just that it's literally part of what I'm hired to do sometimes. And so, I think that becomes sort of like a part of who you are. And so whether that's a work session with your team and you're working on a pitch, or whether that's going in with a big client and having to come up with something that's amazing or having to look at a category and see something that hasn't been done before, I think that's a skill too, that you start to develop and you get better at. And maybe not everybody has it, but if you have it, it's something that you can build and perfect over time.
Charles:
And what are you afraid of?
Trey Laird:
Like basic things. Like human things. Like I want my kids to be happy. Things like that. And I'm not really afraid of ... I don't know if it's a form of fear, or maybe it's just the way you position it. But I think, to be able to sort of really achieve everything that you want, and really try to explore every part of yourself and everything you're capable of in your potential, I think if you didn't do that, it would be a shame. And so I think, however long it takes you or whenever you decide to do it, I think it's important to kind of go for it. And so I think, I'm afraid of fully never not doing that. So far, I've always been able to push myself to do it, but you've got to keep reminding yourself. So I think, to me, I'd sort of think about as a form of fear in a way, like you just kind of, you can't be afraid, you can't let that stop you. And again, it may sound simple, but I think it's something that you have to be aware of and keep top of mind. So, yeah, I'm afraid of not being able to do that, but I'm on my way.
Charles:
I wrap every episode with three themes that I've heard, that I think contribute to your success from a leadership standpoint. So tell me what you think of these. First is, I was going to say that you bring real humanity. But it's more than that. I mean, you take people at face value clearly, you seem to be able to strip away all the kind of periphery and noise, which allows people to engage with you directly, which I think is part of why so many people have just been drawn to you, because I think they just see a person wanting to be a person, not looking at it through any other more complex sort of lens. It's just, this is who I am, and this is what I'm here to do. And if that works for you, great. And if it doesn't, then fine. So I feel like that's a really big foundation platform for you.
Second is, clearly you're willing to take on the problem. Like whatever the problem is, right? There's no limitation. You're interested in solving the problem. And third, I think, is that you're willing to move past any kind of obvious obstacle, like somebody saying, "You need to start your own agency today." Most people would say, "I'm sorry, right, there's no chance that that's going to happen." That stuff, I mean, it makes you pause and think about it for a nanosecond, but you then do it. And so the willingness to solve a problem or the desire to solve a problem, and then supported by the willingness to actually do the things that are necessary to do that, I think, are really powerful in combination. So I think those three pieces together are really big platforms for you. How do those sound?
Trey Laird:
That's great. I think that sounds great. I should hire you. You can explain me to other people, because sometimes it's hard to explain yourself.
Charles:
You've done a great job today.
Trey Laird:
No, thank you.
Charles:
Trey, thanks so much.
Trey Laird:
Thanks so much. I appreciate you having me.
Charles:
Likewise.
Trey Laird:
Thank you.
