214: JOAN Creative

Leading In The Time Of Virus

"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT

Episode 214: JOAN Creative

Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact.

This episode is part of Season 2 - which we’ve sub-titled, “Leading In The Time Of Virus”.

In these conversations we discover how some of the world’s most innovative and creative leaders are adapting their leadership to our new reality.

These people are among the world’s best problem solvers.

This episode is a conversation with Lisa Clunie and Jaime Robinson, the co-founder of JOAN - a 4 year old independent creative company. 

I knew Lisa and Jaime before they knew each other. When they finally met, they each asked me to work with them to decide if they would be good partners for each other. 

As you’ll hear, their chemistry was obvious immediately.

If you’ve listened to the podcast much, you’ll know I’m an advocate for women ruling the world. And for the qualities that women leaders bring.

This conversation and my recent episode with Gina Hadley of the Second Shift highlight an obvious truth. Working from home is no longer a compromise. And can never be seen as one again. Which means the disruption caused by this pandemic has created a unique opportunity for us to reinvent businesses so that they work for everyone. So that women can play much bigger and more significant roles in their companies AND in their families. Now, perhaps, finally, there is a way to design businesses so that women do not feel the need to compromise.

The plans are being drawn, the cement is being poured. Now is the time for women and their supporters to design and build the companies of the future.

What role do you want to play in that?

Here are Lisa Clunie and Jaime Robinson.

Charles: (1:49)

Lisa, Jaime, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.

Jaime Robinson: (1:53)

Well, thanks for having us.

Lisa Clunie: (1:53)

Thanks for having us.

Charles: (1:55)

Tell us where you are and who you're locked down with? Lisa, let's start with you. Where are you and who you with?

Lisa Clunie: (2:00)

I am in my home in Pelham, New York, with my husband and my two kids.

Charles: (2:07)

And Jaime?

Jaime Robinson: (2:09)

I am at home in New Jersey, with my husband and my two kids and my dog who just got sprayed by a skunk three days ago and still smells up the whole house like it. Yeah.

Charles: (2:20)

Oh, that is the worst.

Jaime Robinson: (2:23)

It is. It's great. It's really good.

Charles: (2:26) 

Yeah. Fantastic. How are things? How's the business? How are you guys dealing with this?

Lisa Clunie: (2:34) 

Well, I mean, nothing prepares you for a global pandemic. I mean, here we are, we're a little over four years under our belt and we entered this year thinking, you know what, we're really figuring this thing out. 2020 is our year. And sure enough, just when you think you've mastered it, something else comes. And so I think this is testing us in an all new ways every day as people and as leaders alike, I would say.

Jaime Robinson: (3:10)  

Yeah, it's funny that 2020 New Year's Eve and I texted Lisa like, "Boom, this is it. This is it, 2020." Clear vision, because we knew exactly what we wanted to do and we were rolling. And it's not to say that we aren't, but this is obviously a bit of a disruption to the world, I would say. And yeah, it's just funny that it came in a year called 2020.

Lisa Clunie: (3:37) 

100%.

Charles: (3:38) 

It really is, isn't it? I mean, we all had, I think, so much hope and anticipation, and 2019 had been a kind of a strange year. And I think 2020 was one of the few New Year's Eves that a lot of us stayed up for, I think because it's such a significant moment, isn’t it? And talking about what we want the year to be, good grief, how fast the world changed. To your point, the agency had a ton of momentum walking into the year.  How much of that has been diluted? How are you feeling about business in general?

Lisa Clunie: (4:07) 

So we had our best fourth quarter and we beat it in first quarter. And then we beat that in second quarter. So really, really strong start to the year. But then back half, my gosh, what is up? So in some ways we were lucky because we had about 65% of our revenue signed before we started the year. So we went in, like I said, with some big plans and dreams and a new business plan and all kinds of things. But of course even our clients, our clients are really affected by this. So we've been exposed a little bit in the hospitality, travel and tourism section. We have two clients that were wildly affected from that. Most of our other clients were not directly hit, but as citizens of the world are watching their own businesses decline over time, and so are reorienting some of their budgets. So for us, it has been a softening of our business for sure. And we feel really grateful that we had such a nice start to the year because that's given us some ability to weather, I think that we might not have had otherwise. And also a pretty good pipeline, I would say. Jaime, is it six pitches that we've wrapped in about eight weeks?

Jaime Robinson: (5:31)

Yeah, it's been pretty full on. I've done a significant share of all-nighters from the entire Joan time over this past time in quarantine. And the one thing I would say that, nothing prepares you for this, but being small business owners for four years, definitely there have been some bruises and bumps along the way that it gets you a little bit calloused. So you kind of go, all right, you're like, yeah, okay. We were in shitty places before and we were squeezed before and we found ways to get around it and through the teamsmanship and the brilliant thinking of the people. But yeah, we've been in quite a few business pitches and it's been pretty exhilarating to see actually how the team is collaborating. And the quality of thinking is really going very much up. And it's not obviously something that I would wish for this to be for so many reasons, but the collaboration between the different teams in the agency is pretty staggering right now.

Charles: (6:37) 

Yeah. I want to come back to that because I think it's a really important point. I'm really curious to understand, obviously as you went into this, you had to get into reactive mode. Everybody I know went into reactive mode. What does this mean? How do we deal with it in the short term? How do we physically put a company that was physically present into working at home? How has your mindset shifted over the last few weeks and how far out are you now looking? So Lisa, you just mentioned looking at third or fourth quarter, who knows? Absolutely. But how far out beyond that are you looking? How far out are you trying to plan for?

Lisa Clunie: (7:08) 

So I think one of the things that is kind of a little bit annoying is the fact that we had just finished our five year plan, like just finished it. And there are so many things about that five year plan that are now in question. The confidence of consumers, the confidence of business in some ways. Also the acceleration of digital, of direct to consumer, all kinds of different things are happening during this time period that weren't happening before. So we already have this framework of the five year plan, but I do think that we have to now look at that anew, based on some of the accelerations that I'm talking about.

So I think for us it'll be, and actually we have this offsite on Wednesday, to start digging into that. But some of that is about taking the bones of what we've done and now reorienting it, given the new learnings and sort of the new place culture is in. So I imagine we won't be able to see the full five years, but I think we'll be able to see what the next 18 months might be like in terms of an agency narrative arc. That said, we're very focused on the next three and six months. We advise our clients all the time to not let the short term dictate the long term strategy. So it's important to keep two plates spinning at the same time, but the short term really is a critical thing for us too.

Jaime Robinson: (8:39) 

I think creatively too, the short term is very interesting. And I don't think that it was, about four weeks ago. I just want to put that on the record. I think about four or five weeks ago, the short term creative was everybody reacting to this very quick change of the world. But I think right now, and Lisa and I talk about this a lot, the cards are in the air right now. Like someone's come and taken the table and flipped it into the air. And so the cards, all the playing cards, are just in the air. And I think right now is a very interesting time to try new avenues of creativity and to grab for some things that maybe you wouldn't have had before. I'm looking at like John Krasinski and Some Good News and saying, this is a guy who was just an actor a little while ago and did some directing.

But he has now kind of occupied this place in culture that he didn't really have. And he's kind of unseated Ellen as America's sweetheart. And you think about the tools that are at our disposal right now and the opportunities and the pipelines that are wide open. And you think, how can we take advantage of this from a creative perspective? And make some stuff that maybe changes the course of the business or maybe changes the course of some of our own creativity. So it's pretty exciting, in that one way. And I think the thing that scares me the most is not having the wherewithal or the time to really take advantage of that table flip.

Charles: (10:11)

Yeah, I think that's so well-said. It's interesting, isn't it? Because there was such a willingness for some people who are in more stable situations. And obviously there are some businesses who are faced by existential threat, are we going to survive a week, a month? Somebody told me last week that the average American business had 45 days of cash when this thing hit, which strikes me as appallingly bad business management, on every imaginable level. So maybe we'll get some better business practices coming out of this. But I do think one of the things I've seen that's interesting is that the people that I'm working with whose businesses are substantively more stable, there is a greater willingness to look at themselves more self critically and say, "Who do I want to be and how do I want to lead coming out of this?"

And actually one of the things I've been doing is a number of Leadership 360s because people are saying, "I want to know how I'm showing up, I want to know how I can be better." And I've got a moment in time where reflection and self-reflection is really important. And so I think, Jaime, your point is really well taken, which is there is obviously huge tragedy, but there is also huge opportunity coming out of this. How are you keeping people focused on the mission of the company, even as the mission of the company continues to evolve and change? How are you guys keeping people feeling like they're part of a community?

Lisa Clunie: (11:24)

I think for us, it's a slightly different situation because everybody who works at Joan is a shareholder. So right there, they're immediately tied to everything that we are about and for, because it's theirs as well. We do have a Monday morning all-hands meeting that we've had since the day we opened. And it's where we talk about every single kind of active project that's happening in our company in a really transparent way, which is great. And we make any major announcements that week and that kind of a thing. Typically, we then put out a all-hands survey just to make sure people, see how they're feeling, checking in on them. How are you doing during quarantine? Is there anything that the company should be helping you with or that you wish the company was helping you with? And is there anything fun that we should be doing that can encourage our culture?

And it's the same survey, we do it every other week now. And then on Wednesdays, we have another all-hands. And that all-hands meeting has no client business in it. And it's just about us. How do we feel? What are the results of the survey? What can we learn? How can we help each other? So, we don't talk about any kind of client-y work in there. And I think those three things together have really made, I think, a lot of difference in people's lives.

They have been able to express some things that maybe weren't comfortable to express in the past. Those surveys, they're anonymous. So questions can be surfaced at that time that they really need us to answer. I think that allows us also to make sure that we've got our thumb still on culture. When you don't see everybody all the time, it's really hard to know what the pulse of the company is, what's the heartbeat. And so then we can use Wednesdays as a chance to air the grievances, talk about them openly, refocus, rally, remind everyone of the mission and kind of repackage. Or if something is off company strategy or off company tone or mission, then we can address it then. And we can say, "You know what, that's not something that we should really be doing, I don't think. That's not part of our company or our culture." So it's easy to kind of nip it in the bud early, I would say.

Jaime Robinson: (13:37)

Yeah. And just adding on that, they’re also building in some, even more new rituals and opportunities for shenanigans, I guess, is the word. Like we have started, so someone every Friday night sings goodnight to the agency. And there's a million songs that are about good night. It could be “Closing Time” or it could be the “Jaws” theme song, about “show me the way to go home”. And we kind of started taking turns singing out the agency every Friday night, so everyone goes into the weekend happy.

But I think we're looking for ways to kind of also connect with one another that are surprising. So something that's started to happen organically and it's become really fun to watch is, we all work in Google docs right now. And usually Google docs, you comment and the comments like, "Does this really make sense? Is this is on strategy? You left off a period, whatever.” But one of our copywriters has started doing kind of long form conversations with people about non-sequitur things that have happened in the sidebars. And it's kind of fun. You can kind of go down and watch these back and forths that probably happen at two in the morning or two in the afternoon. Time is kind of irrelevant at this point right now. And you can see this really fun little story that's kind of happened between two people. So then seeing that and seeing that that's a really fun thing, other people are picking it up and starting to do that in the docs, which is really great.

Charles: (15:00)

Oh, that's great. Yeah, a real sense of community coming out of this in so many different ways.

Lisa Clunie: (15:04)

Yeah.

Charles: (15:05)

Obviously you have a lot of responsibility to a lot of other people. But as you both said, you're at home with husbands and children. How are you balancing that? How are you balancing all of those different roles? How do you find the time to do all of that?

Jaime Robinson: (15:20)

Well, we're lucky enough to have an au pair in the house that has been helping with us with childcare and she's great. She's been a fantastic person in helping to take my youngest daughter who's dyslexic, and is freaking amazing creatively, through a lot of her work. I will say that one of the most beautiful things about this thing has been being able to spend more time with my family and see them. And Lisa, I know you share this too, if I'm honest, before COVID, I probably didn't make it home for most family dinners, not during the week. I would be there on Saturday night. But Monday through Friday, I have a long work commute, Jersey transit sucks. You don't always make it home in time for dinner with everybody.

But since this thing I've been able to really have dinner with everyone. And also, fun little things like we’re doing a rep for a pitch and I think it's really pretty good. And I pulled in my youngest daughter to come look at it and watch it. And she was like, "Whoa!” And seeing that reaction from her, it was amazing. And I would never get that otherwise. And so there's great things that are happening with family in that way. And I think the thing that everyone's had to be a little patient on is when we're all in our work modes, if they're in school mode or if I'm in work mode, then that's got to be the time that you're in school mode and work mode. And sorry, mommy can't come and, I don't know, play whatever with you right now. And so everyone's had to be a little patient. But I think everyone's been pretty cool about it, which I love.

Charles: (17:05)

Lisa, what about you?

Lisa Clunie: (17:07)

Yeah. I agree with Jaime. I think that it's probably one of the worst parts of our industry is how little time you really get with your family when you're really in it. I mean, it's just constant, right? And because we don't have the commute in the morning and the commute at night, that's two hours really that you get back into your day. And then I go downstairs for lunch too. So I go downstairs and it's a moment, "Oh my God, I got an A on this test," or, "Hey, do you know ancient Mesopotamia? Can you quiz me on these?" Of course I don't. I'm like, "No, I'll do my best, but I don't know." But you get kind of the in between the time kind of comments as well. And I've noticed that both of my kids have really appreciated the time with me. And my youngest learned how to ride her bike in the last couple of weeks. Like there's all of these progression moments that I think are happening, more confidence with both my husband and I being home. And it is hard because this is such an incredibly tragic moment. And yet looking for some glimmers of positivity fortifies the soul. And so I do feel really grateful for the time I've gotten with the family. I will never forget that.

Charles: (18:24) 

What do you think will be enduring out of everything you guys have just described? Which parts of that do you think will persist once we move away from lockdown? People keep talking about going back to normal. Clearly, I don't think any of us think that's going to happen. We're going to be designing a whole new society and a new economy, right? But what do you think will be part of that?

Jaime Robinson: (18:44)

Well, I think it's up to us, and that is the important thing. You talked a lot about reassessment, and this situation was forced upon all of us. None of us asked for it. None of us wanted it, and yet it's here. And so things are changed. And I think we can either go back to that, to the normal life, as we knew it before, which I actually think would be kind of a shame, or quite a shame. Or we can make a decision that we're going to maintain some of this. I think our teams, like I said before, are thriving from the work perspective. The work is beautiful, it's amazing. And if we as leaders, as Lisa and I as leaders, say, "This is something that's important for us to maintain some work-life balance," then I think it will happen. I think it will be very easy and we have to all watch that we don't slip into the inertia or the old ways. But I think if we can hold onto them, we're the ones who are deciding it.

Lisa Clunie: (19:46)

Yeah.

Charles: (19:47)

Lisa?

Lisa Clunie: (19:48)

I think that working from home is going to become much more normalized and people I think will welcome it. I do think that there's part of it where it's too extreme at this point, where we really miss hanging out together and a good meeting sounds like a good idea right now. I think our office space will probably turn into more of a clubhouse, where we come to meet when we want to and we host clients there, but our real operating space is probably our homes, which I think is really interesting. And as a working mother and knowing a lot of other women who would like to rejoin the workforce, but have some practical things in their lives that make it difficult, I think that's wonderful because now maybe we have an access point for a lot more people.

And the reality is when we are all working from home, it works. So I think the trick will be to make sure that there isn't this two culture situation where there's an office culture with different people and there's a home culture with different people. And then there's side conversations that happen. That I think is the wrong way to do it. But if we can figure out a way where it's like, when the team needs to get together, it can use the office, that's their clubhouse for the day, or when we're hosting a client, they can come in, but our regular meetings are handled through VC. Then I think that that's probably good. That's good. We want that.

Charles: (21:16)

Yeah. There were two dynamics that are going to play a part in this, aren't there? One is, I was talking to a friend of ours in Milan who actually was on the first episode of Season Two, Karim Bartoletti. And Italy feels like it's a week to 10 days ahead all the time of what we're dealing with. And so it's a bit like looking into the future. And they went back to work last week and I talked to him yesterday and he said, "It's obviously really strange because we've got these strange new protocols. People being stopped at the door, you're having your temperature checked when you walk in. Deliveries are being held outside the door." He said, "We've moved the desks apart. If you have to take public transportation, you can't come into the office." So we're going to have this period of adjustment where new wiring is created and new expectations are created. So I think that will be part of it.

And then I think to your point, both of you, the dynamic by which people have learned how to work at home and what works and what doesn't has being like five or ten years worth of experience shoved into two or three months, hasn’t it? We've learned a lot about what's good and what's not good about this, and we can create best practices from it. And I wouldn't want to be in the commercial real estate business because I think our companies are going to say, "I don't need all that space."

Lisa Clunie: (22:23)

I think that's right. And frankly, it's always been a major expense. And the theater of it has traditionally been very important. And as a young company, competing against some of the world's biggest companies, there's a massive difference between walking through the hallowed halls of a Wieden, for example, or a beautiful office of 72, and then Jaime and I are working in a WeWork. At the beginning, we're not anymore. But at the time there is this feeling of sophistication and status and prominence that comes with it, a professional space. But I'm not sure that our clients are going to think that way anymore. This sort of Zoom situation has democratized all of that. When they see six heads on a screen at our place and six heads on a screen at someone else's place, it's sort of like all things are being equal at this point. Now it's just about the quality of the thinking and the quality of the ideas.

Charles: (23:20)

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.

Jaime Robinson: (23:22)

Our lipstick budget has gone up though, because, like you got to bring some energy there. But it is true that one of the things that we've had to get really good at, all of us have, is trying to bring the same energy that we bring to our in-person presentations through a screen. And we've done a lot of kind of like just self study on what are the best things, what is the best way to sit, what is the best way to address somebody? Where do you look? How do you express your enthusiasm for a piece of work that you absolutely love, in this flat two dimensional space? And so I think that's been a really big adjustment, but we're all getting pretty good at it.

Charles: (24:08)

Well, and interesting for you, right? Because you are a particularly demonstrative. I mean, you are physically demonstrative when you present and when you show up in the world, right?

Jaime Robinson: (24:14)

I am.

Charles: (24:15)

It's part of your energy that you bring that to it. So that's a very interesting perspective actually, that you've had to figure out how to adjust that to be able to convince people, I'm really here, this matters to me.

Jaime Robinson: (24:25)

Yeah, and I think it has to do a lot with looking at the other person on the other side of the screen and just trying to imagine that they're there. It's always about trying to send the love or the idea and the humor and whatever the emotion is out at that person and try to bring them back so that they respond in kind, and we just had to really work on it. And I think we're at a place where it's starting to feel natural, strangely.

Charles: (24:58)

Yeah. I've got one last question for each of you, but before we get to that, Jaime, just want to pick up on that thing you said earlier, and just get your insights on this. You mentioned that you feel like the work in many ways has become stronger. And I've heard a couple of other people say that, Nils Leonard said to me a month ago, he said, "I really feel like the seclusion actually has given people time to think in a different way and that we should build this kind of structure into how we run these companies going forward." Are you feeling that too? It sounds like you are.

Jaime Robinson: (25:23)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. What we're seeing right now, especially between strategy and creative and really everybody is creative in the agency, so it flows, that creativity flows through, but we're seeing the ideas really in lockstep together. So there's that typical thing that happens in agencies that strategy writes a brief and then creative goes off and does something else and then strategy goes, "Oh, I guess I have to retrofit my brief to this." Well, we have not seen a lot of that. Instead we're seeing strategy and creative kind of talking through the brief early together and then going together and hand in hand going to develop that into an idea, which is so cool.

And I think that the other thing that is kind of helping us right now is, weirdly perversely, we're an agency who, one of the things we screen for when we hire people, is a little sense of rebellion. Lisa and I we're always like, "We started this company with a sense of joyful rebellion and people like to break rules a little bit." And the fact that the world has basically imposed rules on this company, on all of us, right? Like we're all locked down. We can't do this, we can't do that. I think that I'm seeing little rebellions constantly in the work. There's more fight and feist and rule breaking in all of the work. And again, I don't want to just have to be stuck in the house all the time, but it is cool to see it flourish in that way.

Charles: (26:46)

Well, intention has always been a big, important part of getting great work, hasn't it? And in fact, building great businesses. What are you finding out about yourselves? Lisa, what are you finding out about yourself as you navigate this?

Lisa Clunie: (26:58)

I think that the first several years of Joan, I was really in that determined driver kind of position where it was just like, here we come. I'm just going to plow right through and just so focused on establishing and growing this business. And I think at this point I have moved slightly into more of a talent first, humanity first kind of position. And it's actually closer to the place that I played when I was at Refinery in a way than how I have been at Joan so far. I think that this moment calls for incredible compassion and empathy, and creating the network, the feeling of a community that is empathetic to each other and to the situation and are finding their compassion has been a really interesting shift for me, and something that I am really proud of. Yeah. And something, to be honest, as an entrepreneur, I feel like I'm a compassionate person, but it was not the first adjective I think I would use for myself in the past three years or four years.

Jaime Robinson: (28:36)

I want to just say she is right. I would not use that adjective either. No, I'm kidding. But I'll tell you this, Lisa Clunie is doing a beautiful, beautiful job at that, at maintaining morale, at being transparent in the most eloquent way, at pulling together the people of the agency, I'm going to get all teary right now. But I'm watching my partner blossomed into this amazing person who she always has been, but I'm seeing a different side of it. And I just think it's her. She is so important right now to all of us. And I just think she's doing a great job.

Lisa Clunie: (29:18)

Thanks.

Jaime Robinson: (29:19)

I love you, girl.

Lisa Clunie: (29:21)

I love you too. I love you too. What about you, Jaime?

Charles: (29:26)

Jaime? Yeah, what are you finding out?

Jaime Robinson: (29:30)

I also will look at it in contrast to the past couple of years. I feel like the past couple of years we've had a lot of fun, but there has been this feeling of competition, and you got to do it this way and trying to be other people and maybe looking at it more from that perspective, from a rat race kind of perspective. And what I'm fining right now is just wanting to create stuff that makes me happy and that makes other people happy. And really thinking about the possibilities of what we can put out in the world and dreaming again. Business, I think, will sort itself out. I hope it will, in general for all of us, for this entire economy. And I have faith that the world will go back to normal at some point of some sort. Or maybe not, or maybe the new normal, is how can we be better to each other and how can we stop judging ourselves by other people?

I see some people posting on Facebook or these business-y type posts that were the same things they would have done pre-COVID. And I just am like, "Man, haven't you learned? Doesn't this feel like a time for us to try to be better people, for us to try to love the ideas and try to love what sharing ideas, that feeling that it can create between people again?" So I feel like maybe that my priorities have shifted, and I think in the end it'll be more healthy for both myself and my business, which I love.

Charles: (31:13)

And what are you guys afraid of? Lisa, what are you afraid of?

Lisa Clunie: (31:17)

I'm afraid of pretty much everything. But I would say that I am mostly afraid of being afraid, because I think that fear is the thing that squashes the dreams and squashes the creativity. And so part of me, in my heart of hearts, I know that there's a lot to be scared about and it's in our faces constantly. And I was just saying to Jaime, "Do we have to have murder hornets now?" I mean, it's like, here we are, we're in a global pandemic and now we have murder hornets. But like everything is scary, right? From a personal perspective, family, business, all of it. But I have this logical side of me that says, “Fear is going to disable you and is going to make you more cautious and is going to make you less creative.” And so how do you put that in a place where you acknowledge it, but then you also you stay as rebellious as you always have been? You take the risks like you do, stay yourself. And so that's my focus really, is channeling that energy into the right places that are really all about curiosity and passion and creativity and laughter and all of those things, the release side of that.

Charles: (32:47)

Jaime?

Jaime Robinson: (32:48)

I am less afraid than I've been in a long time, and I don't know why. And I guess maybe it's because in some ways the fear, like you're seeing people die for real. I want the health, the physical health, of people that I love to be intact. And I think everything else will sort itself out. And I don't know why I'm so Zen. I'm not a Zen person. Lisa Clunie knows. I'm usually fairly uptight.

Lisa Clunie: (33:17)

Not Zen.

Jaime Robinson: (33:18)

I'm not Zen. But I think when you have like catastrophes, things start to go really into perspective. And seeing people in my town die and seeing how people in New York City die and you just think, "Oh fuck." It's going to be okay. Someone said a quote a long time ago that I really always hold dear, which is, "Everything will be okay in the end. And if it's not okay, it's not the end." And I think that story will right itself no matter what. And we will be all okay.

Charles: (33:54)

I've always believed that the qualities exhibited by women in leadership positions are the qualities that we should all build our businesses around and in which businesses in general should be built around. And I think that if we can start building companies and a society around some of those values, many of which you guys have just espoused, the better businesses we will have and the better society we'll have. So I wish you both nothing but the best. I am so excited to see what happens in the next phase of your journey. And I'm sure you'll come out the other side of it just flourishing.

Jaime Robinson: (34:29)

Oh, thank you Charles.

Lisa Clunie: (34:29)

Thanks Charles.

Jaime Robinson: (34:31)

Thank you.

Charles: (34:32)

Thank you both for coming back on the show. It's great to see you both.

Jaime Robinson: (34:35)

Great to see you too.

Lisa Clunie: (34:36)

Great seeing you too.

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Let us know if there are other guests you’d like to hear from, and areas you’d like to know more about or questions you have.

And don’t forget to share Fearless with your friends and colleagues. 

If you’d like more, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com where you’ll find the audio and the transcripts of every episode.

If you’d like to know more about our leadership practice, go to thelookinglass.com where you’ll also find links to articles I’ve written for Fast Company and for the Profitable Creativity blog on creative leadership.

Fearless is produced by Podfly. Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Producer and editor. Sarah Pardoe is the Media Director for Fearless.

Thanks for listening.