Leading In The Time Of Virus
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 229: Malcolm Poynton
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business.
In today’s world, leadership means meeting the challenges of two viruses - COVID-19 and racism. In this environment, unlocking creative thinking and innovation has never been more critical.
This week’s guest is Malcolm Poynton, the Global Chief Creative Officer of Cheil Worldwide.
In the early weeks of the pandemic, Malcolm got stuck in New Zealand while his family were in London. He experienced first hand one of the very best governmental responses and learned some leadership lessons that I suspect will prove timeless for all of us.
What’s your intention and what is the greatest obstacle to that?
Leadership means knowing the answer to both. And then getting your ego out of the way.
Here’s Malcolm Poynton.
Charles: (01:01)
Malcolm, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for joining me today.
Malcolm Poynton: (01:04)
Charles. Thanks for having me. And it's a pleasure to be here.
Charles: (01:08)
Tell us where you are and who you're with.
Malcolm Poynton: (01:11)
I'm here in London, in West London with my wife and daughter. My daughter has just begun her upper sixth or final year of high school. So we've been through what so many people have been through with homeschooling and my wife and I both working from home.
But her school they're all back at school and into it. It was also a little bit tricky in that I was away. I was in lockdown in New Zealand from February through ‘til May for family reasons. I got caught there when they shut the doors.
So it made it even harder. So remote parenting and remote schooling for that first part, probably wasn't ideal, but things are going well now. Thanks.
Charles: (01:52)
How has your leadership adapted over the last several months? Because obviously the world that we lived in February was very different suddenly in March. And to your point, you get stuck on the wrong side of this thing, and suddenly your life really fundamentally changes as yours did.
I know a couple other people who were in the same situation where they got trapped, literally away from their family. That adjustment itself has to be really tough on a personal basis. How did you adapt your leadership through all of that?
Malcolm Poynton: (02:17)
Well, I think what my situation of being locked down in New Zealand was through unfortunately losing a family member. And so I think a whole lot of things coalesced around that time to make me more acutely aware of just the situation that everyone would be in differently across the countries that we operate.
And so for our global creative leadership team, who I would normally connect with once a month I brought that into a weekly cycle. And I think what became abundantly clear instantly to me, is no sooner did someone declare this a global pandemic and you suddenly realize actually it's a very local pandemic, right?
So for all the concerns globally, it's so different on a local level. And when you've got people who may be as our creative leader and Russia's mother is in Belarus, you've got a government there who simply don't believe there is a pandemic.
You've got people in countries like China or Hong Kong and others who culturally adapt entirely differently without fear, with positivity, moving forward, perplexed by the fear generated in other countries.
And so what became really important to me as a leader was to be able to really facilitate those conversations amongst our global leaders so that they could share and support each other.
And I think it's both a combination of bringing empathy to the table, but also beyond empathy, actually genuinely understanding what is going on in this very diverse world that we live in.
Charles: (03:55)
Your experience living through the early months of this in New Zealand, and now going through it in England must be fascinating because in many ways, this has been both a massive failure of leadership. The way that the pandemic has been treated, as well as in some isolated cases, New Zealand probably being the very top of that list an extraordinary example of what leadership can do.
What did it feel like being in New Zealand? How was the communication different than what you're living through in England? Because I think England is in many ways as disastrous as the way that the US has handled it.
Malcolm Poynton: (04:31)
Yeah. It couldn't be more different, right? And I think I was plugged in everyday through different news services to what's going on in the UK, but obviously acutely aware of the differences in what was happening in New Zealand.
And I think you've got Jacinda Ardern who was already pre-pandemic acknowledged as one of the more contemporary leaders of a democracy in the world and quite celebrated for doing that. But I think a lot of people forget she's leading a coalition and that's a very interesting thing in itself, of course, because that lends itself to bringing different voices to the table.
And I think one of the criticisms that I became aware of when I was in New Zealand, there's a lot of New Zealanders felt as her leadership style and government draws upon specialists from different fields. And there's a lot of consulting that the government draws on and the people were saying, “Well, that's what the politicians should be doing.”
But I think actually what they did, which is brilliant, is a couple of things. One, they're absolute scavengers for all the information and data from anywhere. They had no ego as a government about, “We have all the answers,” and they will course correct according to what the latest information is telling them, whether it's coming out of Europe, the UK, North America or other institutions with health data.
And the other thing is, they just played it so simply in terms of communication to the country, the first thing they did was message, unite against COVID. And that was a constant theme and in a country, as you'd hear, probably as we talk a bit about my background and a country obsessed with sport, that's such an easy thing to understand, right?
We all have to unite against this thing called COVID. And we've all got to stay in our position and do our darnedest to not let our teammates down and not drop the ball.
And with that they had underpinning messages which were on motorway signs, so long as the motorways were open and around different places just saying, “Be kind.” And at first there was a bit of mocking this in the media, but I think it pretty quickly settled with people that being kind is a pretty important thing because you don't know someone else's circumstance.
And then with that they introduced this concept of bubbles, right at the beginning, and saying, “You've got to stay in your bubble in your home, on your property. You could extend your bubble when they relaxed the alert stage down a level and you can expand it further down to level three and so forth.” So crystal clear communication that really united everyone around behaving in a way that supports each other.
Charles: (07:17)
Such an interesting reference point because in the US clearly, it's been politicized and we've been divided. In England, my sense is they would like to unite against COVID, but the messaging has been so deplorably terrible and the policy making just completely incompetent that there's no chance.
And then the idea of making something a common enemy, of course, it's so obvious as soon as you say it, you think, ‘Why doesn't everybody do that?’ Because it is an existential threat and economic threat and a human rights threat in many ways, actually.
Malcolm Poynton: (07:51)
Yes. [crosstalk] I landed back in the UK, the first thing I saw was a horrific image of a frontline worker and full PPE at border control as a poster telling you to social distance, not isolate or anything, but then you're confronted by this image, which is so fear generating you just think, ‘Oh my God.’ And that was something different. There they just didn't generate fear. They just generated a collective spirit.
Charles: (08:21)
One of the things I think that makes your role particularly interesting is the nature of the network that you are leading. It's dynamic, there are many different elements to it. There was some very small businesses as well as some larger businesses to it. I think it's probably unique almost in that regard.
How are you navigating being a reference point for all of that in this day and age, because there are so many different needs kinds of needs that those different organizations have of you and your leadership role?
Malcolm Poynton: (08:52)
Yeah. And I think actually, what's interesting about that is it also spans horizontally very, very different disciplines from our architectural practice MD labs through to our experiential side of things, our data teams and digital and social and barbarian group being in that digital space and the culture space that I rested in.
So they're very different in that sense, as well. But I think for me, what's important in terms of leadership within the network there, is actually bringing people together to collaborate. And I think to that point of our agility and our ability to move at the speed that we need, sometimes it's helping clients move at that speed by breaking down their silos, through our collaboration on our side.
So oftentimes there's a need, even in terms of our organization to ensure we overcome those barriers or tensions to collaboration, introduce people who don't know each other, get them to know each other so that they can work together to push things forward faster for clients than what their own organizations can.
And I think that's not something that's necessarily a modern issue. I think it's well, probably knowing that companies like Proctor and Gamble who've in the past sought innovation, startups and companies to help them, the IDOs goes and others of the world help them push because of their own internal structures.
And I think we find that with the larger clients today, the same is true. They actually look to us to help push them forward. So really for me it's about assembling those relationships that otherwise wouldn't exist to bring that diverse thinking together in a collaborative way that can get to a better answer.
Charles: (10:42)
Has the pandemic actually made casting easier for you in that it's easy to break down walls because people are all now isolated. And so you can pick amongst them rather than being less… being concerned about who they work for and which office they're based in. Has this in some ways open the doors up for you guys.
Malcolm Poynton: (10:59)
I think what's opened it up probably is every office is in that—well not every office, actually a lot of offices are in a situation where the furlough schemes or the financial pressures have consolidated their team sizes.
And I think that everyone's conscious from a commercial point of view. So perhaps in a pre-pandemic situation, there may be a little less access to some of the talent because of the demands of business as usual. I think what has done has just freed up a little bit of the access to some of the talent and that's a good thing, right? It just means we can get better talent connected more often.
Charles: (11:38)
Are you finding you're getting to know people differently?
Malcolm Poynton: (11:42)
I think yeah, for sure. I think one of the things is because I'm on the ground and not where I would normally be in an airport or on a plane. I actually get more time with a lot of people that would have literally been a phone call through video chat and call it Zoom or whichever other platform you're using.
But I think actually there is a lot of benefit just being able to see each other, whereas oftentimes it's quite tricky to do that when you're in transit and you end up on a phone call, so you definitely get more of a human connection with people. And you're definitely getting a richer understanding of conversations when we can see each other, I think.
Charles: (12:25)
One of the things that I've been interested in talking to other leaders about is the challenges of not seeing people three-dimensionally. There's the limitations that are presented by how you look at somebody on a screen are pretty significant actually from a human standpoint, how are you paying attention to what people are really going through? How do you get through the screen to connect with people? How do you get past the screen? So you don't have body language to rely on in the same way that we used to, for instance. How are you able to look at people multi dimensionally?
Malcolm Poynton: (12:58)
I think one of the things is actually, I hear a lot of people referring to asking people how they are and I think that's important and that's great. I think one of the things that's really the connection I have with our team is actually, I'm concerned about how their families are. It's very easy to understand how someone is on the screen in front of you.
I can tell if someone's in a hospital or in an office or at home, and they'll project a certain demeanor that when you're familiar with them, you'll know. But actually for me it's more important to understanding what's going on around them.
And as you asked at the beginning of this call, who am I'm with in London and what's going on? I think that's actually a much more telling aspect of how we relate to each other and circumstance and context is everything.
And so for me that's become even more part of the conversation, is really understanding what's going on with family circumstance around people. And even down to that level of what's going on if they're in lockdown, what's happening in their precinct and their neighborhood and you get some pretty surprising and revealing answers around that.
Charles: (14:05)
This has gone through waves, hasn't it? How we all responded in March and April then evolved, I think in May and June, some are opened up certainly here in the Western hemisphere. Now I think you're starting to get a sense of people getting concerned about what it's going to be like to really get into winter. How are you dealing with that and how are you helping other people deal with that?
Malcolm Poynton: (14:26)
I think one of the things that I'm able to do with our teams, especially and extend beyond the core group of people, I bring together is, understand how the societies are geared up and responding differently. So for instance when I look at how our office is in Beijing, for instance, where we're one of our largest offices in the world, 14, 1500 people, it's business as usual.
Yes, there's masks and yes, there's hand sanitizer, but in truth culturally, there always is there any way, because it's etiquette socially that if you are infected with something, you’ll wear a mask. There's also a lot of prevalence of masks being worn because of environmental situations and toxicity in the air. So if I look at Hong Kong and I look at mainland China, there's no fear, right? Hong Kong have lost very few people, right? Less than 50 people.
And they look out at the rest of the world and they're like, well, wear a mask and wash your hands and get on with it. What's the big deal. And then you look at other countries, whether it's in Latin America or you look at some of the central European countries and even some of the Western European countries where this fear has been built the whole time around things.
The conditions are very different for people. And I think there is this fear being built up around winter. And there's this fear of being upheld, I think through all the communication around infection rates versus mortality rates. And so it's unfamiliar to us. So people don't know how to read all of that and it's natural that there's anxiety. But the thing that I think is fueling it even more is our social feeds are becoming feeds of fear.
And because during this time we've seen 40 to 50% rise in terms of use of social platforms and messaging platforms, it's just never ending. And so it becomes self-fulfilling and just building up and up and up. So for me, I'm always trying to anchor the conversation back and the differences between perhaps the East and the West and there just isn't that fear in South Korea, there isn't that fear in China. And there isn't that fear in Hong Kong. There may be other situations going on in Hong Kong for instance, but generally that fear just isn't there.
Charles: (16:52)
Yeah. It's such an interesting cultural exploration, isn't it? Because I think those cultures are much more willing to act as a collective. And I think obviously certainly here in the US that's not the case. And I also think on an emotional basis, I think part of the resistance to wearing a mask, which just seems so, I think if we all wore a mask for what, six weeks, the general consensus is this thing would basically die out because it would have nowhere to go.
But I think part of what's going on here is that there is very much an emotional response to that, in that I think people just are terrified of not being seen. I think it's one of the things that allowed Donald Trump to rise to power.
There was whole group of people that felt just unseen by the rest of us. And I think literally wearing a mask makes you literally not be seen. And so I think it's as much an emotional reaction to that, which people haven't really tapped into. And hopefully if we get some stability out of this election process, I think part of what's going to have to happen is an emotional recognition about what people need to hear, as well as the practical considerations of just getting the pandemic behind us.
You mentioned ego a few minutes ago in terms of the New Zealand government's response, and that they have no ego. I think ego is a fascinating component of leadership in general, because you have to find a balance between having the confidence and the desire to literally stand up in front of people and say, “We're going this way because… and follow me.”
And increasingly you have to be ego less in allowing other people to be able to take major roles in that movement. And in most cases be the driving energy behind that movement. How do you balance ego? I think New Zealand has a particularly gentle cultural presentation. There's a way that in general, New Zealand is center sharp, at least in my experience that is relatively lacking in ego in a very positive way, I think, how do you balance that?
Malcolm Poynton: (18:43)
I think there's a lot of things just in terms how I grew up that probably influenced that a lot. And I think I learned at a young age, through sport, if you want to have an ego, go out on that rugby field and carry the ego with you, and it's going to be knocked out of you pretty quickly.
And I think that's actually, it's a great lesson that you learn through sport in that sense. And all of the clichés around that, and I played rugby very competitively until I was not big enough to compete anymore, too many broken bones at which point, my other sports passion, which was yachting took over.
And again it's another thing, you put yourself on a boat, particularly by the time I got to sailing and ocean racing, you put yourself on a boat with say 15 people at sea, and you've got all kinds of weather coming at you.
You’re sailing on a Sydney Hobart or a Fastnet race or something like that. There is no room for an ego to be dominating what's happening on that boat. And many of those conditions, it's survival. But it's survival, not just for human life, but also to win a race ironically, right? So you're balancing all these things all the time. The circumstances are changing all the time.
You need to be highly attuned, highly alert and highly, highly collaborative. And at a certain point, yes, there was someone who's responsible for the boat and therefore everyone on it, who will ultimately have to make a judgment one way or another, if you're in that situation, but really it's about working together to get through it.
And the amount of talk on a sports field, if you listen to what's going on on the sports field, amongst the sports team like the All Blacks or if you listen to what's going on on America's Cup boats and everything, it's constant talk and feedback. And I think it's really, really for me, an important part of it.
You can't have that constant conversation if there's an ego that's dominating, you just don't, everyone just zips up. So if you want to bring that ego in the room, then don't expect that you're going to get much response from people, would be how I view it.
Charles: (22:55)
Last two questions for you. What have you learned about yourself over the course of this year?
Malcolm Poynton: (21:00)
I think really in terms of the course of what's happened over the last year, I think I've learned that it's right to care as much as you can about the people.
And sometimes I find myself questioning just how far you need to care about the people, because you do see, and I've been through agencies in my career, where the culture is less about caring about the people, more about caring about, say, the point of view of one person or caring about other aspects of business.
But I think genuinely if you really care about your people or the people around you. You just build relationships that get you further. And I think that's true with clients as well. And I often say to people, especially young creatives coming into the business, “The one thing you're probably never going to be told to do a lot is to get to know your client like they're a very close friend.” The better you know people, the better you know what you're trying to achieve and the better you're going to have a chance of actually doing something really interesting, that's going to get you to a great place.
So you can't care enough really. And I think I've learned that's probably certainly a quality that I would never let go of.
Charles: (22:19)
And if we're going to get to a place where anti-racism is embedded into every organization, that has to be at its heart, doesn't it? The desire and the capacity to care for everybody.
Malcolm Poynton: (22:29)
It does, yeah and I think.. And let's take that right back to recruitment stage, right? And I think I dismayed that we live in an industry in the West, certainly, and some Asian cultures as well, where it's a prerequisite that you have certain tertiary education.
And what do you end up with? You end up with an industry who is like-minded talking one story. And many of the most famed agencies in the history of advertising were built by people who started their careers in the mail room.
And again, it's like, how much do you care about the people as opposed to the qualifications? And I think sometimes when we... I'm just curious by nature. So when you start talking to people and finding out about people, you find out things that are really interesting, don't you?
And the more interesting and diverse thinking you can bring into the room. And that's what I love, and it's a privilege for me different to other networks, to be able to bring our leadership from China, from Romania, from Central America from all sorts of countries together, because everyone's so different.
And it's really, really exciting to be able to see, even… as we go along in this world more and more connected through these mobile devices, aren't we? And I think getting through that position of being able to help lead a team of people to understand how best to connect to people, we learn different things when we ask questions of people from different places and different backgrounds.
And I think this is one of the things, again going back to ego of leadership is, there's leadership that has an ego, thinks there's one way and it's the right way. And going back to the top of the conversation, the thing of a coalition government in New Zealand, it has all points of view.
And them being able to coax and I guess, filter what comes out of that point of view as a leader politically for Jacinda Ardern [inaudible] is her power. And I think that's what I think is relevant in terms of leading our teams and our company.
Charles: (24:42)
Yeah. I think that's exactly right. The energy that you've needed to get into a leadership position in the first place tends to, in some cases I find, get in the way of helping other people looking predominantly at what do other people need. Last question for you, what are you afraid of?
Malcolm Poynton: (25:02)
I think I'm afraid of situations that are built around an inflexible structure, which probably does stem from a traditional hierarchy. So I'd say in short, I'm somewhat fearful of tradition that stifles progress.
And I guess for me, anything that stifles progress freaks me out because I've only ever looked in the forward direction when it comes to the things. And that I think it's quite daunting, whether it's in a sense that you have a company structure that may be [inaudible] over years and years and years, whether it's in an individual, who's got a point of view that's intransigent and not open to things, that freaks me out and creates fear, is that closed-mindedness. And I think generally as a human quality, just the open-mindedness and the curiosity is what excites me most.
And I find not just most liberating, but it's the thing that gives to the most progress that we could possibly imagine. And that's what, at the end of the day, I'm sure we really all want, and I guess that for me on a personal level also relates to, I guess, not just the times we live but the planet that we live on.
And that's a massive thing I'm passionate about, probably not surprising growing up sailing yachts on the ocean and growing up in probably nature's best playground, which is New Zealand, is the fear of the closed-mindedness that may really, really jeopardize the future of our children and grandchildren is acute.
And that is something that's hard. I think for most people in the world today to actually really get a visceral response to, I think it's so abstract for so many people. And I think just as a entire civilization on this planet, I just don't think it's resonated in such a way that we're seeing enough people open their minds and be curious enough around what we should be doing to change the world to something that's sustainable and could flourish for the future of our kind. That's pretty frightening.
Charles: (27:36)
Yeah, really well said. If we don't get that right then all the rest of this stuff doesn't matter very much.
Malcolm Poynton: (27:44)
And it's interesting to see and observe which leadership styles are actually more able to emotionally get people engaged in these challenges, particularly this one.
Charles: (27:56)
Yeah. It's an extraordinary time for the leadership. No question about it. And it's never been more necessary. Thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing so openly, it's been a really, really fascinating conversation and I wish you and your family well.
Malcolm Poynton: (28:09)
Pleasure, Charles, and to you and your family too. Thank you very much.
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