Leading In The Time Of Virus
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 205: Susan Credle
This episode is our fifth of Season 2, which we’ve sub-titled, “Leading In the Time of Virus”.
These are shorter, focused conversations in which we discover how some of the world’s most innovative and creative leaders are adapting their leadership to our new reality.
These people are among the world’s best problem solvers.
This episode is a conversation with Susan Credle, the Global Chief Creative Officer of FCB. Susan is not only one of the most creative thinkers that I know, she also has a rare ability to create practices that unlock creativity across diverse clients and multiple offices and cultures.
Susan talks about why she sees people taking more chances, about the importance of setting some structure to each day and about why a generous mindset matters more than ever.
Here’s Susan Credle.
Charles: (01:06)
Susan, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on.
Susan Credle: (01:08)
Oh, you're welcome. I'm glad to be here.
Charles: (01:11)
Just tell us where you are and what your experiences at the moment. You're at home upstate.
Susan Credle: (01:18)
Yes. I'm in Millbrook, New York and I think last week I moved around the house a lot trying to find where the right office would be, and I've ended up in a kitchen, in my husband's architectural chair, after sitting on a stool for the first week and thinking, “I'm not going to be able to walk in about a week,” because my back was so sore. And yeah, I look out a window and I don't have one of those Apple watches that tells you when to stand. But I'm trying to remember to get out of the chair and walk around after every conference call.
Charles: (01:58)
And I imagine you're really busy. I imagine that it's kind of relentless.
Susan Credle: (02:02)
It's interesting because I usually start about eight in the morning, full on. Normally I'd walk into the office around nine, have some coffee, visit with people. But at eight o'clock you're in the chair getting ready, full on. And I've been trying to, it doesn't work often, but I'm trying to be mindful of finding an hour and a half to two hours during the day to take a break. I know a lot of my colleagues around the world that have mandated 12 to 2, that they demand that everybody respect each other and take a mental break. I've asked all the CCOs around the world to try to do this because I think they can, in my job, I think they are too many times zones that I'm working with that nobody would understand what 12 to 2 is.
But I think within a geographical location, it's really important to set some boundaries of what time, like I know our New York office said no meetings before nine and no meetings after six. You can work before nine, you can work after six, but no meetings. They are only demanding a 12 to 1 break. It's interesting, I think companies need to make some official policy like that because we are only two weeks into this, maybe three for some people, and you can already feel that people are struggling with how to have your work in your home existing in the same space.
Charles: (03:40)
Yeah, and one of the things I've read quite a lot about from a psychological standpoint is how important it is to create a sense of order and routine in this reality, that doing the same things at the same time every day is one of the ways to get through this, to create some resemblance of normalcy.
Susan Credle: (03:53)
Right, right. And what I've been asking everybody going through this, I'm saying, "Please be present and think about you're liking about this and what you're not liking about it." I wonder if we'll take some of the structure back to the office because this was an issue before this all happened of work-life balance. I mean it's probably the number one thing I get asked all the time, "Can you help us with work-life balance?" And then, "Do you have it?" And maybe we'll find out that having some structure and not working all the time, whether you're in the office or at home, you actually get to a better place.
Charles: (04:36)
Well, and I'm finding that when you have these kinds of conversations, people tend to be more focused, right? And more present. I mean, you're engaged in a smaller number of people. It's pretty obvious who's paying attention and who's not, in this kind of environment. And I find that you actually get more done. It's more efficient and a more effective in many ways.
Susan Credle: (04:55)
Yeah, we're working super fast, I mean in a good way. Like we just had a first tissue session, for a really fun new business pitch. And I won because we're not geographically really in a place to make decisions, we sat down and said, "All right, who would be the best… if we could put the best creative team together, who would it be?" And we decided, for this particular assignment, and we decided to use our London office, our New Delhi office, our Toronto office and our Chicago office. And I think we got briefed the beginning of last week and we had our tissue session yesterday. And the client was like, "I had no idea you all would get this far." He said, "I thought we would be looking at basically strategic ways in to solving this problem." And we brought him six big platform ideas with lots of underpinning of why we thought these would work, how we had tested them across different challenges that he was going to have over a period of time.
And I have to say, working wasn't brutal. We had timed meetings, and I think it's like you said, we were focused. We also didn't work hierarchically. All four of the CCOs were on the call together and we said, "Look, we're in this together. We've got a lot of brilliant minds right now on this call." I think there were about seven of us, because we also had a Head of Design and my creative partner, Fred Levron was on there. Every idea, we said, "You all are now the CCOs of each of these ideas. We're here to make them better." And so everybody pitched in on everybody's idea, and instead of thinking it was a competitive conversation, it was a generosity conversation. And it's interesting because we have these meetings called the GCC, the Global Creative Council, twice a year, where we work with each other's work to make it better. And in all honesty, I didn't realize that we were learning a new way to work. I just thought we were there to try to make FCBs output of work better so that we would get more talent, more clients, more business.
But what's happened is we've got this incredibly collaborative muscle, that this was our first pitch, and it was a global pitch, that it just lit up. And the generosity of all these brilliant people, we quickly cut to the best ideas. We were like, "No egos in the room, just get us to the best work." And I have to say, it was one of my more enjoyable experiences when it comes to putting a meeting together with creatives.
Charles: (07:57)
And do you feel like that kind of mindset and attitude is going to be sustainable when we're not all fighting the common enemy of coronavirus?
Susan Credle: (08:04)
I sure hope that we learned that message. I think that our industry has spent at least a decade, I might say two, tearing each other down versus building our industry up. And sometimes I believe we did more damage to ourselves by thinking that we were being cutthroat competitors versus if we had said, "You know what, there's a lot to go around, and if clients value our industry and what we do, we're all going to win." Versus saying, "Those kinds of agencies don't work anymore. This is the new way to work, this is the best agency, those are bad agencies." We might've hurt ourselves a little bit.
Charles: (08:47)
And to your earlier point, you feel like the handbrakes are off in terms of ideation, in terms of creative thinking?
Susan Credle: (08:52)
Yeah. I was telling our people. I said, "This is the time where everybody understands that we're working in very strange circumstances." So failure or not perfection is going to be accepted a little bit more often than it would have three weeks ago, or even three months ago, depending on where you are in the world. So have fun, try some stuff because you're going to be forgiven. I was like, “Ah, it was the COVID. They were trying. They were trying to work through this weird time.” So I think we might get more comfortable with taking chances and trying things that we wouldn't have tried before.
Charles: (09:37)
And do you feel like you're getting to know people in a different way? Because obviously, you said you're sitting in your kitchen, I'm sitting on my third floor, we're not in our usual environments. Are you finding that people are sharing in a different way?
Susan Credle: (09:47)
Yes, and I think we're becoming much more human and more real. If we thought social media was putting on a… the best of us, we're seeing the ugly. We're seeing people that I was like, "What's a manicure and pedicure? Where do I get that?" It's a very forgiving group of people when we get on and I find that we're laughing so much more. I mean, we get tickled. There's this one, he's our CEO of North America, this guy Tyler Turnbull, and he's got this little son, George, who's three years old. And every day, there's a story about what George has done. And the first one was, while Tyler was on a Zoom call and he was supposed to be watching out for George, he came out of the place where he was doing a Zoom call and George was sitting on the sofa and he had colored the arm of the sofa with a magic marker. And Tyler filmed this, videoed it and said, "George, what did you do to the sofa?" And he said, "I colored it." And he said, "Why did you color it?" And he said, "Because I peed on it." Seeing that part of Tyler's life and knowing that, it's great to see life. And it's not just work. And I feel like it's been a long time since we've seen people in a more intimate way.
Charles: (11:35)
And I'm also conscious that at the beginning of every call, people are really taking the time to find out whether you're, okay, how each other are doing. It's not just a check the box, hey, how you're doing, fine, thanks, let's get on with it, right? There's much more attention and genuine interest in that, you're seeing that as well.
Susan Credle: (11:53)
Yeah, it's interesting because even, like our clients, for the most part, I've always had pretty good relationships with clients. And they're still very demanding and they need us, but the way that they ask for things, the feedback that they give, it always starts with, “Thank you.” Wow. There's a civility that's happening, and the interesting thing that I'm learning is that the more civil people are to each other, the more you want to work together and actually the harder you want to work.
Charles: (12:33)
So the level of humanity actually creates a better environment in which people can do better, braver at work.
Susan Credle: (12:39)
I absolutely believe it. And I grew up in the '80s, where it was, I think the belief was terror and fear, we get the best work out of you.
Charles: (12:52)
How has your leadership changed in the last three, four weeks? What are you focusing on or prioritizing?
Susan Credle: (13:01)
I think the main thing is, is I'm not a real high touch leader. I think when I communicate with people, I usually feel like I'm personable and it's very intimate. So that part of being human and vulnerable, that hasn't changed because that's just the way I show up. But I'm not the person that's always going, "Hey, how are you?" or knocking on the door or sending you emails, and I'm trying to put structure into, reach out to the global CCOs on Monday. And I'm not putting in a lot of pressure on myself of what it has to be. I mean it could be a stupid story. This week it was really about stepping up into a different kind of leadership, which means that you're not just taking care of the business, you have to take care of the people.
And I'm not sure I really was looking at it that way prior to this. It's like, it's your life, I don't want to get into your personal world or whatever. I'll help you with how to show up at the company. And I think now, I really, I'm trying to be much more, without being relentless and too much, let people know I'm here and I see them and I'm here to help. I just had somebody write from the London office and you could tell by the email, he was like, "We're really stretched and I know you guys are in this big pitch, but I can only give you two people and I feel bad." And I wrote him back and I said, "That's all I need." And I said, "And I don't need too much of two people because the people you're giving me, I need their advice more than their output, and we'll work around it." And it was nice to be able to say that to him and say that the way we're going to work, nobody's going to have to do all the heavy lifting.
And I'm not sure I would have structured the team that way two weeks ago. I think I would have said, "Oh, if your idea goes forward, then it's yours." Whereas now, we put six ideas on the table from four different agencies and we were saying that whatever goes forward, everybody, all four agencies will work on that. And that's not the way it used to be.
Charles: (15:29)
And what kind of response does that generate internally within the agency?
Susan Credle: (15:33)
Well, I kind of set up the rules of engagement before we started. And I just said, "Fortunately, we've been talking about generosity and abundance for five years." So it's not a new conversation, it's just a more of an imperative conversation. So I actually think it's easier because I think when we were having it before this, people were a little bit like, "But wait, why did they get to work?" Now, I think it's just appreciated. It's like, we win together, this idea is going to probably have moments of everybody in it, and we just have to remember that it's better to win together than be shredded and exhausted and frustrated. And I think every time we do this, we're going to learn that it's a better way to work. And again, if you have really smart people working with each other, I think where you get resentful is if you feel like someone's not pulling their weight and yet they're included on work that you've worked really hard on. And nobody feels that way because they're all really good.
Charles: (16:49)
Yeah. Amazing it took this for us to discover we actually need each other to be successful.
Susan Credle: (16:54)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's weird. I think we built a business on internal competition and forgot that there's a whole big world out there to win. And it's a team sport, I've always believed it. I love reading about successful teams and the successful teams aren't made up of superstars. They're made up of team players. And you might have a superstar on that team, but if he or she does not recognize the other players and the positions they play and lets them contribute, you won't win.
Charles: (17:37)
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. What's your time frame from a mindset standpoint? Are you looking a month out, three months out, a year out? How are you guys approaching what the future looks like?
Susan Credle: (17:51)
I think that the way that we're approaching this, is hypothetically. I think the three ways we've been thinking about this is a recovery, a recession or a depression. And we have to plan for all three. And right now the discussion has been financially, like what does a recovery look like? It looks pretty good. What does a recession look like and what does a depression look like? And so what measures do we have to take on each of those? And I think, again, it's that cliche preparing for the worst, hoping for the best. But I appreciate that the leaders in our company are looking at all three because I think you can't just go, “I'm going to be optimistic,” or, “Oh my gosh, it's Dooms Day.” It's like look at those three pieces. And then I was just writing a note to our global head of strategy is that I think we should do, we're doing that for finance, but I also think we should do it strategically.
Like what are people going to be like, what's their behavior going to be like if this just bounces back? It's like the money's unleashed, the people are unleashed, everybody goes out, and we pour it into the economy. The stock market goes back up. Does that happen? How will people behave and what will they need from brands and businesses? If it's a recession, people are going to behave very differently and make different choices. And then if it's a depression, yet again. So I think that we need to be looking at the world in at least those three segments so that when we find ourselves in them, we're not way far away from a solution of how a brand or a company should show up. Yeah, so that's kind of interesting. We were saying today too, it's like, let's say that this goes on for three months, because I think in England, they're thinking three months. That's really only 90 days.
It sounds like a lot, but when you're in a moment, where the whole world is going to be pivoting to some place, it's like, if you've got that brief today and somebody said, "We need to be on air in three months with an amazing campaign,” you’d say you're not ahead of the schedule. By the time you get your strategy written, you figure out what you're going to do, you brief the creatives, you have creative meetings, you have to go make the work, you're about at 90 days. So anybody who's sitting back and saying, "Well, I'm just going to wait to see how this plays out,” I think they're going to get really hurt. Nigel has some great work on how investing during a crisis is the most important thing companies can do, if they can. The most dangerous thing they can do is just pull back and not be present because then when something changes, nobody's thinking about you. So it's the first for me in my career, I guess, maybe 2008 was similar. But yeah, I think preparing for different scenarios is really smart, and trying to keep clients in the game as best they can.
Charles: (21:23)
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean we built our film editing company in literally in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. And I've always believed strongly that the discipline that that fostered on us, to be very clear about the business we were building over the next two to three years, and which parts of that could we invest, and to your earlier point now, the fact that we were so clear about the vision we had and the things we needed to do today and how do we get rid of every other expense. That process allowed us to create massive competitive advantage. So when the industry did come back and people started spending, we just exploded ahead of everybody else.
Susan Credle: (22:00)
Yeah. Yeah.
Charles: (22:01)
It can be a very valuable time in which to build a business.
Susan Credle: (22:04)
Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting because I think when people first started hearing the office is closed, like around the agencies, they were like, "The office can't be closed." And we were like, "No, no, no, it's not closed." The physical office is closed but this, we're going to keep working. And I think everybody was like, "How, how are we going to keep working?" It's amazing to me how quickly we've adapted to this new world and this new behavior and it doesn't feel that foreign. And even people helping each other on Zoom and having to have somebody clicking that every time you talk about a keynote or something you have to go click, click, click. Or what's the word you're going to do? Are you doing hand movements, and which one works the best? And new etiquette when it comes to business. And again, a lot of our species is very smart. I mean, I am really impressed with how quickly people have just figured it out.
Charles: (23:08)
Yeah, it's true. I mean it really is one of the great traits of humankind, isn't it, is our ability to adapt?
Susan Credle: (23:13)
Yeah.
Charles: (23:15)
What do you think of the good things that are going to come out of this, or are coming out of this?
Susan Credle: (23:19)
Well, I think one is working from home. I can tell you in large corporations, that was a nonstarter, like if you just said that. And I would say even I was a little bit like, wait, we're creative people. If you work from home, how are we going to ever have meetings? Are you ever going to be present? And what we're finding is, yeah, you can. And I think that this has been a little bit of a forced practice to see if people just cheat the company or are present. And we're not feeling, in fact, I would say that what we were saying earlier, is I think probably there's more work put into the hours of the day now than probably prior. So I think that will be more of a consideration which could help with margins, and real estate, do you need as much space as you thought you did, if you have people that come in and people that stay home? And even vary that, that could be interesting.
I hope that people find that the way they're treating each other today is actually a much better feeling than when they were dictatorial or brutal to people, and that we'll have a bit more humanity. I also wonder if what we were saying earlier about structure and people's lives, what I hear about for the first time in my life, I'm sitting down to dinner every night with my family, and this feels right. And so I think that this, did I get my work finished or do you say, you know what, work will be here tomorrow. But I'm doing my dinner with my family. So I think priorities will shift a little bit, and not only just the priority, because I think we'll still do the kind of work that we would do anyway, but I think we'll realize, we're being forced to realize that it does get done. It does get done, and by the way, you don't have to work ‘til 10 at night at the office and miss everything about this other life. You can do both. And we've always said you can't. I think this might be a dress rehearsal for yes, there can be a balance.
Charles: (25:46)
Yeah. I hope you're right about that because it feels really right that it's happening that way. The last question for you, what are you learning about yourself?
Susan Credle: (25:59)
Let's see, what am I learning? That's my dad. Dad's calling. I'm learning that Dad calls me during work hours now because he doesn't think I'm working. He thinks I'm slacking off.
I think I'm learning to really work well with others and that I'm learning that I actually enjoy having five or six of my colleagues looking at the work when I'm looking at the work, and having a equal ability conversation, and really trusting each other. And I think trust, just that we're so out of control, like that tissue session we did this week, there's a guy in Canada who was running the keynote for all the ideas and for the flow of the meeting. And we all had to trust that he would know where we're headed. And we were saying before we started the meeting, it's like, “And by the way, if we mess up, don't worry.” It's like we're learning the waltz for the first time, and it went beautifully. And I was just like, wow, we all trusted in each other. And yeah, trust, I think we're trusting each other a lot.
Charles: (27:35)
Yeah. Let's hope that's a lasting condition that comes out of this, right?
Susan Credle: (27:37)
Yeah.
Charles: (27:38)
Susan, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate the time and the insight.
Susan Credle: (27:42)
I hope I get to see you soon in person.
Charles: (27:44)
I do, too.
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