Greg Lyons of Pepsi
Why Asking ‘How Are You? Is Not Enough.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 307: Greg Lyons
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business.
This is Season 3, which we’re calling, “Leading The Future”.
How do leaders lead when none of us have ever been here before?
This episode’s guest is Greg Lyons - the Chief Marketing Officer of PepsiCo, North America. Greg and I spoke during the CMO spotlight series on Cannes Lions live back in October and I was struck by his willingness to share his own journey.
Greg lost his wife, Andrea in December of 2016. Before she died, she gave him and their two children three pieces of advice. There is nothing more important than family and friends. Your health is critical. And spend time doing what you love.
We are shaped by what we live through.
And what all of us have lived through for the last 14 months will change us forever. There is no going back. And how we go forward will depend on how we see ourselves and how we are seen.
Leadership, particularly in companies that depend on creative thinking and innovation, requires that we look forward, relentlessly and urgently. The status quo is poison. Where are we going, is oxygen.
If we are to convince people to take that journey with us, we will need to understand that they arrive in front of us different than when we last saw them in person.
They will be closer to their family and friends. Their health will matter more to them. And they will care more about doing what they love.
Some have been close to illness, perhaps death. Others will wish that parts of the last year could become permanent. Some will be thrilled to be back out in society. Others terrified.
Leading the future will ask that we know and care about the people that work for us on a deeper level than we did before this pandemic. The question, how are you, will need to wait for an answer and that answer will need to matter to us.
We must make progress while we are rewriting the rules. And the winners will be those businesses that are led by people who are empathetic. Genuinely, truly empathetic.
Here’s Greg Lyons.
Charles: (02:24)
Greg, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Greg Lyons: (02:27)
Hey Charles, happy to be here. It's good to talk to you again.
Charles: (02:30)
How will you look back on 2020?
Greg Lyons: (02:33)
Oh my goodness. That's quite an opening question. 2020, I think one word for it is crazy. It was a crazy year in 2020, but another word that comes to mind is stronger. I feel if I look at myself personally, and then if I look at the business, I think both of those things are stronger right now. Personally, I've got a new family now. I moved into a new house with a new family, and so I have two new teenagers in the house. So four teenagers living under one roof in the pandemic. Honestly, I don't think we'd be in this situation if it weren't for the pandemic, it's forced us to all figure out how to get along and have empathy for each other. So I feel stronger as a family because of 2020. Then if I look at the business, we obviously, number one priority was to keep our employees safe.
We were able to prioritize better as a business than I've ever seen us. We were able to break silos and not just work in our functional silos. So all of those things, or those skills are going to make us stronger coming out of this. Then if I think about just the marketing department, I feel, we were leaning into purpose before the pandemic, but I feel like 2020 with all the craziness that went on really helped us lean into purpose even more. We're more agile and more flexible than we've ever been as well. So crazy, but we're stronger because of it.
Charles: (04:25)
I think that's such a good description and actually it echoes what a number of people I've talked to have experienced and felt. I think to some extent on a personal level, it resonates with me as well. Given that we've gone through that and that in many ways we are, I think strong is a very good word. 2021 is going to be much more complex, it already is, right?
Greg Lyons: (04:45)
It is, yes.
Charles: (04:46)
Last year, the rules were the same for everybody and we thought it was strange, but in fact, it made it simpler as we look back on it. This year, that's not the case. How are you grappling with the very dynamically changing realities and experiences that we're going through now?
Greg Lyons: (05:02)
Yeah, we're thinking a lot about that. We just announced for the marketing department, that we're going to be opening our offices at 30% capacity in July. So we're sitting here in April and this conversation. That's going to be different because we're probably going to move to more of a hybrid. You're right, not everyone's going to be in exactly the same situation. That said, 90% of our business is the people that make, move and sell our products. So they're the frontline and they've been braving this craziness and been so brave through it. But for my team in the marketing department, you're right, that is going to be a hybrid world. And a hybrid world, I think, is even more difficult to lead, and manage, and work together than a world where everyone's in the same boat. So I go back to that word that we talked about in the past, which is empathy.
If you really have empathy for each other, and you really have gotten to know each other at a human level, and have been able to build relationships with each other, then I think that breaks down that… it makes it easier to work when people are in different situations because you trust each other and you know each other. I'm going to need to keep in the front of my brain that I'm going to need to lead and be more inclusive to making sure I'm understanding everyone's different situation. So when you're on, in a meeting, and half the people are going to be on Zoom, and half the people are going to be there, you're going to have to pause and turn and say, "Okay, what do you all think? And what do you think?"
Everyone's going to need to feel listened to, but I'm looking forward to it. I can tell you that I genuinely miss seeing the people in real life. It's weird because I feel like we're tighter and closer now as a department than we've ever been, because we have spent… it's easier to talk to more people more frequently and we're communicating more. You've seen people in their real life situations, whether they have baseball caps on, or dogs in the background, or kids. But there's no substitute for being in the same room with someone, and really understanding their verbal cues, and their physical cues, and having that small talk that you might not have if you're having a scheduled meeting. So I'm looking forward to that. It's going to be a leadership challenge in making sure everyone's feeling like they're part of the team and there for each other. But I think we're off to a good start given how well we've done that virtually.
Charles: (08:07)
I know you're a big believer in the power of original thinking, creative thinking and innovation, that they're essential components to the business world. Empathy is obviously, I think a fundamental component to the leadership of those disciplines, those skill sets, if you will. The nature of empathy is that in every way that you've just described, it takes longer, right? You have to spend more time getting to know people. You have to be more willing to turn to people, exactly as you've just described and say, "How do you feel about this?" How do you navigate the fact that being empathetic actually has a time component to it in a world that is spinning faster and faster and faster and faster?
Greg Lyons: (08:44)
Yeah, that's a great question. Empathy is hard work. So empathy is important as a marketer and as a leader, right? As a marketer, we've been practicing empathy for a long time. Gosh, if you don't have empathy and you're running a brand, your brand is going to be tone deaf, and you're going to be not genuinely connecting with the people who you want to, to build that fierce loyalty for your brand. It does take that effort to understand people's lives and what makes them tick and what's important to them. So the good news as a marketer is that almost been trained on that for our lives. So it's not a new skill. I will admit, and this is sad for me to admit, but it wasn't until the beginning of the pandemic that I truly prioritized empathy, empathy as an internal way to lead the department as well.
It was much more of a, let's have empathy for our consumers, as opposed to let's make sure we have empathy for each other. Then 2020 almost demanded that, and we've really leaned in. So whether it's having empathy for your mom homeschooling, or having kids at home instead of in school, or a black person living in the US, or Hispanic, or gosh, Asian now, or you're 22 years old, and you're living in an apartment all by yourself and can't see anyone. We have spent a lot of time… or going through anxiety or mental health issues. Those are all of the things that we built empathy for each other in our department this year. Because of that, and because we developed that empathy and given people the stage to help each other, learn about each other and been brave and been vulnerable, we've created this beautiful sense of people feel like they belong there, and that people are there for them, and it's made us tighter.
So it really, that effort feels worth it just like it does in marketing. So I don't see that as being an issue of, oh my gosh, that's going to take a lot of time. I think we've naturally grown up as marketers being good at that. The results of it, the rewards are phenomenal when you do it well, both on the marketing and how we've seen internally as well.
Charles: (11:34)
I think we're both conscious of the human impact of the last 12 months. I think it's been nothing less than existential. People are reflecting more on themselves and their lives. So I don't want to in any way, minimize anything you've just said or any component of what we've all lived through from a human standpoint. Having said that, do you think what you've described that you guys have invested in, do you think that becomes a competitive advantage for businesses?
Greg Lyons: (12:00)
Absolutely. 100%. That being said, I hope a lot of businesses are doing that. It became so obvious that that was necessary given what everyone was going through. The pandemic did, even though people have experienced the pandemic in different ways. Again, if you're black or you're Asian, or you're a working mom, or you've had anxiety leading into the pandemic, it's affecting you differently. But it is something, it's affected everyone's life, the uncertainty, the, ‘Is life ever going to get back to normal?’ It's made everyone have some common ground that we all needed, we all have in common and it forced you to start relating on a more human level. So while I do believe it's a huge, competitive advantage, and I do feel great about how our department is right now, I'm hoping that most places are like that right now. I have a bunch of friends who are CMOs, and I feel like they're moving in that direction as well, so that makes me happy.
I love having competitive advantages over people, but I also love when people are doing the right thing, and making people's lives better, and making people feel valued and included. So the answer is yes, but I think over 50% of the companies are certainly heading that way right now.
Charles: (13:43)
Well, I think to your point, if you're in the business, that depends on innovation and creative thinking, if you're not worrying about how your people feel, you're not going to get a lot of innovative thinking out of them.
Greg Lyons: (13:51)
You're exactly right. I couldn't agree more.
Charles: (13:55)
When we talked last October for the Cannes Lions CMOs Spotlight series, one of the things that you said that really struck me was that you were conscious of the energy levels of the people around you and figuring out how to make sure that they weren't just being sucked dry by endless Zoom. I think you said about, "If we're here in six months, I'm going to be concerned about what that's like." We are kind of still here at six months later.
Greg Lyons: (114:16)
Yes, we are.
Charles: (14:19)
Even if things are starting to getting bad. For me, people are identifying dates to go back into the office as you just said. What have you learned about helping people maintain their energy levels?
Greg Lyons: (14:28)
Yeah. We're really prioritizing what we call self care right now. There's lots of things you can do to manage your energy levels. So there's some tactical things that we've done. We moved meetings instead of half an hour and hour meetings, they're now 20 minutes and 45 minutes. So you're not just straight through the whole day. Because that's just undoable and exhausting. Not sending weekend emails or trying not to do Zooms on Fridays, things like that. But sleep, exercise, getting mental help, like seeing someone to help, a therapist to talk to. We have this wonderful, what we call EAP Employee Assistance Program that after doing a session on building empathy on mental health, a much larger part of my department started to take up that program. So it's a very simple thought that again, we talked about this before, when my wife passed away. The therapist told me, "If you don't take care of yourself, you're not going to be a good father, a good husband, a future husband, a good friend and a good leader."
Getting that message out of really, we all need to take care of each ourselves first, to be able to take care of each other and to be able to give our best at work, has been a very important message. I feel like it's starting to sink in. We also have one other simple thing we do, which is called One Simple Thing. So everyone writes down and tells their boss, we just started this as a leadership team and we're going to roll it out. What's one simple thing that I want to do. I don't want to have meetings before nine o'clock because that's really hard for me as a mom. I want to make sure I work out at five o'clock every day. Just simple things like that, and then everyone knows what they are and hold each other accountable to help people remain healthy.
Charles: (16:47)
It's a really interesting part of my work actually, that the best leaders unlock the potential of other people and are driven towards that. They wake up in the morning and they worry about that, they go to bed at night worrying about it. But in fact, I think your point about, you have to take care of yourself first, before you can do any of that stuff, is very powerful and very important to remember, especially as we go through this year of enormous complexity. Because there are going to be so many on you as from a leadership standpoint. That if you're not taking care of yourself, you'll get lost in all of that, I think.
Greg Lyons: (17:15)
You're so right. Again, I went through that life-changing event where I learned that lesson, but transparently, I struggled a few times this year with it. And it is, it's a lot on a leader right now in this crazy time. If I don't take care of myself, I find myself grumpy, I'm not good with my kids. My fiancé just told me the other day, she felt like she was an employee of mine, that's terrible, right? I realized like, you know what? I hadn't worked out for two days in a row. I had a few extra cocktails the other night. It's so obvious when I'm out of sorts myself, I'm just not the person I want to be.
No one's going to be perfect at that, but having people who you love remind you of that is the best. We've started something at work within the Zoom world, it's very hard to have those hallway check ins of like, "Hey, what's going on? What did you do this weekend?" We try to start all of our meetings with a simple question like, “How are you?” Having built empathy with each other on all these events that we've done. We've started to know how each other, what's going on in people's lives. So the, "How are you?" Is really now a meaningful question instead of a throwaway one. It does give us a chance to at least small talk a little bit and catch up with each other before we dive into it. Because that's another thing that I've found is missing in this world where we're all virtual.
Charles: (19:05)
Yeah. I think there's two parts to that, aren't there? One of which is to remember to ask the question, then the other part is to care about the answer. A lot of people, I think get to the first part of that process, and then don't actually engage with what the answer is.
Greg Lyons: (19:19)
And there's one more part that's really critical and that's, the people need to answer it with vulnerability and authenticity. Because lots of times, if people are just say, "How are you?" The answer is, "Fine." Then you just move on. But if someone asks you, "How are you?" "Well, I'm exhausted. I feel like I have two jobs right now. One, to represent the black community and another to actually do my day job. It’s unsustainable, Greg, I can't do that anymore." That's when you really make progress, is when people are vulnerable, and answer the question in that authentic way.
Charles: (20:00)
How do you create an environment from a leadership standpoint where they're willing to be that vulnerable to you? Obviously your vulnerability is an important part of that, but there's the thing about being vulnerable when you're the leader, right, that can feel a little incongruous.
Greg Lyons: (20:18)
Yeah. It's got to start with me. If I'm not vulnerable, no one else will feel comfortable doing that. Then it goes down to my leadership team and some are more comfortable doing that than others, but I do feel, having gone through the pandemic, it's made people feel more comfortable doing that and being more vulnerable because everyone's going through something right now. Then obviously you need to behave appropriately when someone's vulnerable. Sometimes there's a fine line because people still need to deliver their jobs, right? You still need to hold people accountable for moving the business forward, and hitting the purpose goals, and the agenda that we have. But you also… I just find if you are truly human, and you truly show that you care, and you truly listen that it flows and more people start doing that.
That comes from when people get to know each other and start to care about each other. So that's the environment that we're trying to create. I feel this year, we've made significant progress on this. It's not perfect, but we're getting there. Creating that right environment, that right culture, that unlocks people at their best. When they feel safe, when they feel like people really care about them, then they go all out. We do have this group that I meet with once a month called the CMOC, the CMO Council. That's more junior folks starting their careers out on every single different team. I've made sure that we create the environment at that level with me directly, that they can say whatever is bothering them. All I do is help.
If they say, "Gosh, my leader is not doing what we need them to do." I don't go and punish the leader for that. I help them figure out how they're going to talk to the leader. So it's a wonderful best practice, I think of having that forum where people can feel free and safe, to say whatever's going on. That way, if you're leading the department and you know what's really going on in the department, then you can do something about it.
Charles: (23:08)
How do you cast a group like that? Because there's a lot of opportunity for them to have influence, a lot of influence they have, right? How do you cast a group like that?
Greg Lyons: (23:16)
Each of my directs pick someone from their team and it's someone who is passionate about making this place better, is the brief on that. They're on it for a year, and then you get a new person in every year. So they represent every team. We do a lens of, do we have the right diverse representation on it? But it's mostly just, we try to find people who really, really care about this place and want to make it awesome.
Charles: (23:55)
What do you think the office looks like a year from now?
Greg Lyons: (23:58)
I think it's hybrid. I think we're probably going in two or three days a week and going in for the things that can be done better when you're in person, whether that's celebrations or brainstorms or, team buildings, things like that. Then I think we're working virtually more than we had been in 2018 and 2019, but certainly not as much as we are today. So a little bit of a hybrid, and it'll be interesting to see, no one knows, but that's where I think it's going and we're going to have to adjust and make sure that it's working. But I feel pretty confident that we've gotten pretty good at working remotely, and that if we add in the in-person stuff and remain flexible, it's very important to remain flexible these days in business, that I think we're going to be good.
Charles: (24:58)
I think one of the changes we'll see as well, is I think that the better leaders will be willing to share notes really openly with other people from other companies, don't you think? There'll be a lot of cross company collaboration in terms of what have you tried? What's working? What's not working? I think we're going to learn about this together, I hope.
Greg Lyons: (25:13)
Well, that's what you're for, man. So thank you for doing this and yeah, I love everything that you're doing for the industry, it makes me better. You're right, I go out of my way to try to learn from some other CMO friends of mine and we help each other, and that's great. We're only going to make it better for everyone when we do that.
Charles: (25:39)
Last two questions for you. Do you have any regrets looking back over the last 12, 15 months?
Greg Lyons: (25:48)
Yeah. I mean, we talked a little bit about this. I regret my behavior when I'm not at my best. It's human, so I forgive myself for it. I'm not beating myself up all over it, but there are times when I haven't been at my best and I try to be every day, I wake up with that intention. In retrospect, I probably could have been if I'd been taking better care of myself. But that's a really small regret, quite frankly, because no one can do it every day. So no, I'm feeling good about this 2020. I really am, and I'm feeling good about 2021. If I just look at the most important parts of my life, my family and friends is in a really good shape right now. I feel like I've spent the right amount of time, more so than ever there. My health is very good, knock on wood. So I'm feeling that I'm taking care of myself and then the business.
Our business is thriving right now in North America Beverages on PepsiCo, we're in a stronger competitive spot than we've been in a long time. We just announced our earnings today, it went pretty well. Then the team itself, I feel is stronger than it's been. So if I look across that, I'm feeling good, which is a wonderful way to feel.
Charles: (27:22)
Last question for you. What do you know now that you didn't know a year ago?
Greg Lyons: (27:27)
Well, there's the power of gratitude that I really learned. I was just talking a little bit about that without using the word, but if you are grateful for what you have, I think it just puts you in a much better mindset, a much more positive mindset. Then you can do… again, you can be a better father, husband, leader with it. So I just think about, I try to start every morning with gratitude and thinking about how lucky I am to be actively employed, in a loving family, and healthy, and with good friends. That just puts me on this wonderful, positive way to start the day. It's so easy to do. Everyone can be grateful for any, like just little things.
So I was driving up to my house yesterday and my fiancé was outside planting these beautiful flowers in the front. I just stopped and had a moment of gratitude, A, that she did that and I didn't have to pay a gardener to do that, but B, because I live in this beautiful house that looks gorgeous on the way up. It was just awesome. So those little things this last year, that power of gratitude is much more important and much more meaningful than it's ever been.
Charles: (29:00)
Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. I think that that has really come home in the last 12 months for a lot of us. Thank you so much for taking the time off for sharing today. I so appreciate your honesty and your openness.
Greg Lyons: (29:11)
Hey man, I appreciate all that you did, and any time. I love chatting to you. Thank you for all you do.
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