Nancy Reyes & Chris Beresford-Hill of TBWA/Chiat/Day
How they’re building a powerful partnership.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 317: Nancy Reyes & Chris Beresford-Hill
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.
These next few months are going to be chaotic. Industries are being reformed, culture is being redefined. New rules are being written and rewritten. It’s happening already. Decisions are being made today, literally today, about how to compete for talent and relevance in this new world. So, how should leaders lead as we meet a world of new possibilities and expectations?
None us succeed alone. And the bigger the ambition, the more we need other people to reach it. The age of the iconic, solo, white male leader are almost behind us. Not a moment too soon.
Welcome to the age of leadership partnership. And if you think what came before was challenging, well, as the song goes, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
As humans, we want so badly to belong, that we’re attracted - almost compulsively - by the idea of partnership. It is a light calling us home. Or to the flame.
There are many, many kinds of partnerships. Strategic. Impulsive. Circumstantial. Convenient. And those that are deeply, deeply personal.
Successful and satisfying partnerships are rare. So rare, that when we find them we should take some time to understand why they work.
This week’s guests are Nancy Reyes, the CEO of TBWA\Chiat\Day New York and Chris Beresford-Hill, the agency’s Chief Creative Officer.
As you will hear, their relationship embodies two of the most critical elements of any successful and sustainable partnership.
First, you’ve got to like each other. Because you’re going to spend a lot of time having difficult conversations and making hard decisions.
“So it may sound a little hippy that we talk about our feelings, about each other a lot, but that's the whole thing. The whole thing is, if you can find people that you love to work with and then love what you do, I'm not really sure there's anything else you should go after.”
And second, once the decision is made - whether you agreed or not - you’ve got to develop the ability to support each other.
“If we disagree, we are going to disagree well, and we're all going to support each other. And that sets the tone for the whole agency. So you'll never catch any one of us saying anything negative about any decision that's been made as a group.”
Love and the ability to disagree well.
Sometimes it’s just that simple.
And that complicated.
How well does your partnership work?
Here are Nancy Reyes and Chris Beresford Hill.
Charles: (02:46)
Nancy, Chris. Welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Nancy Reyes: (02:50)
Hi, thanks for having us.
Chris Beresford-Hill: (02:52)
Thank you.
Charles: (02:53)
Nancy, let's start with you. Did creativity play a role in your childhood?
Nancy Reyes: (02:57)
I think the only thing that I remember happening when I was younger… I was obsessed with the baseball team. I was super obsessed with the baseball team when I was little, the Mets to be specific, which was not a great team to be obsessed with. And I was so obsessed and so into them that I thought about them all the time, and I wanted to reach out to them and tell them how great I thought they were, so I wrote a poem to the manager. I was probably like eight or nine, and I wrote a poem to the manager that went athlete by athlete, I went down the lineup and I said what was great about every one of them.
And I was so proud of it, it was such a work of art and I sent it out to the manager, and I got some form letter back and I was like, "God, what a let down." I just got smacked down and I poured my entire heart into the lineup for this team and they really could give a shit.
Charles: (03:56)
Did you go on supporting them?
Nancy Reyes: (03:59)
Yeah, only until maybe 1990 and then I lost interest in them after that, but they only got a little bit more of my love.
Charles: (04:10)
Quite right, too, with a response like that. Chris, you and I have had this conversation a couple of different times, I think. And I think recently you told me that you'd had a revelation about the answer to my question. So when did creativity first show up in your life?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (04:25)
Well, perhaps I should back it up and tell you about our, I wouldn't call it an argument, but I know you ask that question all the time and I always felt like if you're a creative person, you were always daydreaming or fantasizing about changing a situation into something else, or always kind of releasing it one way or the other with scribbles or poems to the general manager of the Mets team. So I guess on one hand, I would always argue that if you were a creative person, you were always being creative. But then I did have a little bit of a revelation when I was thinking about Father's Day. And I remembered that my father, when I was nine years old, took me on a trip to Los Angeles and we went to Universal Studios and we took the tram tour and we went all around and I saw the tangible, I didn't touch them, but I saw the sets from Psycho and from Back To The Future.
And something changed my mind after that, where the things that I loved and obsessed about and disappeared into when I was at home in White Plains, I was there. And I think I just realized, one way or the other, I have to be... I realized that I could physically be close to where creativity and making was happening. And I think from that moment on, it was just a matter of time before I found my way there one way or the other.
Charles: (05:46)
Did you always know you wanted to spend your career in a creative world?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (05:51)
I don't think so. I think people around me knew that, but I guess when you're a kid, you don't really pay a lot of attention to what adults are saying to you, or at least I didn't. When I was a kid, adults would always tell me I was creative, but I think I thought it was just because I was lonely. They would catch me drawing or making something, and they would be like, "You're so creative." And I think my eight-year-old brain wanted to be like, "No, no, no, no, Janus. I just don't have any friends." But I got that feedback all the time, but then I think I did realize, without getting into it, I think I realized at a young age, I definitely knew I was not excelling at a lot of things. Wasn't much of an athlete, wasn't much of a student, but the ability to come up with all kinds of silly ideas and amuse myself and my peers, I knew there was something there. I also knew it was my best chance at not living with my parents until I was 50.
Charles: (06:49)
Nancy. What were the big influences in your childhood?
Nancy Reyes: (06:54)
I had immigrant parents, so I think that shaped a lot of how I think my whole path to work and to school was influenced. That mentality was all about, keep your head down and work really hard and earn a paycheck, earn this, earn that. I think that's always been around. I think that's still around, maybe it was really hard in the beginning, but I've really liked how it's helped me keep focused on what's important and always feel like wherever I am, I'm supposed to be here, I've made my way here. So I would say that was a really big influence when I was younger.
The other thing that was a big influence was, I was a part of this program for inner city kids of color to help them come into private school in New York City. And that change of going from primarily inner city school with kids of color to going into a much different environment where most of the kids were rich, most of the kids were white, it was really different, it was really hard, but that influence of, "How do I feel like I've earned this space? How do I honestly integrate?" That was a big part of my way of survival when I was younger, was the idea of assimilation. That was the whole point, when you're an immigrant kid, you're told you have to blend in, you can't stick out, otherwise there was this underlying fear that you would get like picked up and shipped away because you weren't supposed to be here.
So I would say that while all of those things were hard and I have a lot of difficult feelings about that stuff, I do think it has helped me adapt and evolve and move around in spaces and different people, different kinds of ideas, different kinds of things and ways that maybe I wouldn't have been able to accomplish had I not gone through that. But I would say that was probably the biggest influence of my life, is that thought of working hard, earning it and assimilating. Those were big influences.
Charles: (09:03)
I want to come back to that question of assimilating, because it's remarkable, I think, for you to become the leader you are having come from a background where you felt like you had to fit in all the time. There's a tension with that. So I'd love to come back and talk about that in a second. How did you become part of that program?
Nancy Reyes: (09:19)
I have to say that was probably kind of luck, but the program would go into different communities in New York City in the different boroughs outside of the city proper. And they would go to the schools and ask which were the highest performing students. And we would all get grouped together, we would have to take a number of standardized tests, IQ test, all sorts of things to see if we would make it through this. And then after they were selected, this was in fifth and sixth grade, we went to summer school and then we did an additional layer of school on top of school every day. So I would go to two schools on Wednesdays and on Saturdays in order to catch up to the rest of the kids who just had more advanced education than we had in the public schools.
So it was based on grades and qualifying for it because you'd have to qualify from an income perspective to need the help.
Charles: (10:12)
So the sense of achievement was fundamental to how your life was built?
Nancy Reyes: (10:16)
It was it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I do think there's always been for me this really interesting relationship between feeling like I've earned it and I have achieved it and also trying to be really grateful because was I given the opportunity or should I have had it to begin with, or did I earn it? There's always a tension there. And even though I can tell you that now I feel comfortable having earned every single thing I've gotten, there are many days when I feel like, "Was this a favor? Am I part of a movement or do people really realize that I should be here?" So that tension exists all the time.
Charles: (10:56)
Chris, what about you? What were the major influences for you growing up?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (11:00)
There's a number of ways I could answer it, but actually hearing Nancy's answer, it's interesting because going off of that, I think if Nancy's challenge was assimilating, I think I had a different way, which was that I think I looked like I belonged and I should've belonged, and then I think I felt a little different because I felt like I went to... My father's a teacher, and so he was a headmaster of a school and he sent me to another private school and we did an exchange where the two headmasters swapped for kids so they didn't have to go to the same school. So I went to a school that was about an hour away from where my house was and my parents were not as wealthy as the kids in the school.
I was a pipsqueak and I was shy and I was a poor student and a poor athlete. I had it all going not excellent for me in my quest for a successful seventh, eighth, ninth grade. We moved around a lot too, so I didn't really have… A lot of these kids had been in this town forever and had their parents were friends. So I think I just I tapped out, I think I realized that I probably wouldn't overcome the hill to be, I think I could say it, but to be a Rye Country Day School kid. Even though I think I looked the part and I had the background, I just was like, "You know what, I'm not going to win this one." So I did the opposite, just made myself invisible and decided to passively participate in my dominant experience.
And I think to be really honest, I think it's probably the European background to me, because I was probably brutally afraid of being made fun of or whatever it was, but that's where that shyness came from. So I actually made myself invisible during those years, though instead of assimilating and achieving, I actually was like, "Can I just get through this?" And then I think in that time, I spent a lot of time probably developing a lot of EQ because I was watching kids participating in this life, and I think I just made myself consciously a little removed from it.
Charles: (12:59)
Nancy, when you got into the working world, what were your influences there? What were you guided by?
Nancy Reyes: (13:06)
I don't know if I really landed into a stride, I think until maybe about six or seven years in. I think I was going through the motions because it's not like I wanted to go into advertising, it wasn't my dream. Honestly, that same program I talked about earlier is how I got into the program. There was an agency who wanted more people of color and I said, "Wow, this sounds like a neat idea." And I just got funneled into that, and I didn't really know what it was until maybe I was six or seven years in my career and a boss that Chris and I used to work with gave me a performance review. I thought I was going to get a great performance review and the first thing he said was, he said, "You're not as great as I thought you would be."
And my first reaction to that was, "You're not as great as I thought you would be." I was so defensive about it. I'm like, "I don't care." But I went home that night and I really thought about it and I said, "You know what, I haven't been great. What am I doing? Why am I here?" And I think that very honest feedback really early in my career from the most senior person at the company that I was working for was such a gift because it really, one, taught me how important honesty is and feedback is. And also, that when you're not loving what you're doing, it shows and in every single way, when you have no idea why you're doing what you're doing, if you don't have a purpose behind what you're doing, then you are literally going through the motions.
At that point, I decided that was not the way I was going to do anything, and so I dove full in to what I was doing. That's I think when I really discovered the power of creativity and work and partnership and all that kind of stuff. But I had to have that one moment where I was told I wasn't living to my potential in order for that to change.
Charles: (15:03)
For someone whose life had been guided through achievement, that must've been a very hard thing to hear.
Nancy Reyes: (15:08)
It was awful. It was awful. And like I said, my first reaction was to accuse him of not being great either, or, "Obviously, you're not great if you don't think that I am." But yeah, I do think that it's interesting to be in this constant state of wanting achievement and then also wishing that you weren't in a constant chase, that I wasn't in a constant chase for achievement. And yet when I'm not in it, I feel lost, I feel like, "Why am I waking up in the morning if I'm not trying to accomplish a bunch of things?" So that is something that I continue to just keep an eye on and struggle with, is, how do I get out of it? But also, this is who I am, and maybe there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe that's the point of why I exist.
Charles: (15:56)
Chris, what pulled you into the advertising industry?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (16:00)
I think I realized pretty early on that I could come up with a lot of ideas very quickly, and I didn't think that was special, but then I think over the years, I figured out that that was maybe harder to do for other people and it was something of that came naturally to me. So that felt like I understood that the career was all about coming up with ideas.
But I think all roads just kept putting me on this career that was about ideas and I realized I was not good at a lot of other things.
Charles: (16:33)
So with that context of both of you, I'd like to talk about your relationship, which I think is a fascinating one. TBWA New York has had a ton of success in the last two, three years. I don't know whether you guys would call it a turnaround, but I think to a lot of us on the outside, it looks like one. Nancy, let's start with you. How do you think about the relationship with Chris?
Nancy Reyes: (16:56)
I think it's the most powerful thing about Chiat honestly, and it goes back to... I tell this story about Chris, he doesn't remember it, which sometimes hurts my feelings, but I remember it when we used to work together at Goodby, much younger in our careers and we were both working on a client, it was a very difficult client. And I was just caught in the middle between a really difficult client and us wanting to push really good work. And it was hard. It's a really hard position to be in. And even though I enjoyed it and I loved it, it was hard. And that was never really recognized. And I remember coming back from a difficult meeting and I was coming up the stairs at the agency and Chris said, "Hey, I just wanted to say I know how hard this must be for you. This must be really difficult. We're really putting you in a tough position because you've got these different dynamics going on."
He said, "My girlfriend," who's now his wife, "She's also an account person, and I understand. So if you ever want to talk about it, if you ever want to let loose and vent, I'm here for you." And that to me was exactly what I needed to hear and what I needed to feel. And whether I ever vented or not, I don't remember doing that, it was just the comfort of knowing I could. The safety of that partnership, that we're totally in this thing together, so if I'm not perfect, if I don't nail it, then there's context and an understanding of why that might be and just a ton of compassion and love for it.
So it felt far more two-sided than, at that point in my career, I had ever experienced. It was all about the creative, it was all in service of the creative. And so the other side of the equation wasn't considered. So now when I think about what we've been doing at Chiat, the number one thing that we always talk about to the agency is the concept of team. This is not about one individual, this is not about one department. This is about us doing it together. And in order to do things together, we have to be proxies for one another, we have to trust each other that much, that we can sub for each other in meetings and anywhere we need to. So that's what I would say is what it means to me.
It is the reason why I get up in the morning. If I think that there's a really tough challenge at work or, "How are we ever going to accomplish this?" I think, "Well, if Chris and I are going to do it, if Chris is around, then we're going to get through this." There is a safety net that allows me in some ways, the vulnerability to then be like, "Screw it. Let's just get it. Let's go after it." So that safety provides some bravery that I think is what we've needed in order to move this agency forward.
Charles: (19:49)
Chris, what about from your perspective, how do you think of this relationship?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (19:52)
Well, I think actually going back to that interaction that Nancy remembers, I think that probably is where we can trace a little bit of the DNA that... I have a tremendous respect for what Nancy does and has done. And Nancy, and I think we should talk about this, but Nancy has changed the account management department to the business department, because it's not about managing the Mountain Dew account, it's about managing that business from a client perspective and from our perspective as their partner. I think in a world where I think sometimes account management is not respected as much as it should be, I think the mind shift to, these are people running the business.
I think I've always appreciated the value of a partner and somebody who understands the business and who can be a close ally when it comes to getting great work out the door because you can't do that by sheer force of will, you do need partnership and you do need someone who understands the business. So I think probably going back to it, I think creativity and business, I think Nancy has as much love for creativity as I do for the business of it, and I think there's a real even exchange there. That's important that the whole agency know that, that it's never... In the old days, it was, creative would love to battle with their account person and that was a tension.
And I think we believe more in aligning goals and sharing the same vision.
What happened when I started, and I don't think I've told you this Nancy, but I think the way I think we solidified, because I think we didn't walk into this and say like, "Let's join arms and do this," I think we came together and we were excited about the opportunity, and when I started, there's so much fear when you start a job like this and, "Should I make a big change in the department? Should I make a small change? Should I push the work on this account? Should I leave this as it is and focus on that?" And Nancy was this presence that, while she was completely in charge of everything at the agency, I just knew she wasn't going to let me fail and I just knew that if I made the wrong decision about restructuring the creative department, I just knew that that was going to be okay and that she was going to really support me.
And I think in the context of this conversation, if we go back to who I was when I was a kid where I was very much an outsider, it's rare that I ever feel like someone has fully got my back because I am a little bit of an introvert or a little bit of a lone wolf. And so in the process of that, I couldn't believe how much she was supporting me, and that gave me so much more confidence to do things that I don't think in any other kind of a partnership or any other kind of a relationship, I think I would have been more insecure, more self-conscious, less sure of myself and doing things.
And that confidence really allowed me to step into the role and feel like, "Wow, I can do this and we can make great work and we can make these changes." And so that to me was really the formation of the partnership, was that in that first few months she made me way better than I was going to be. That's a real gift, that if you can ever give that to someone, when there's a moment where someone is stepping into something, if you can not only make them sure they're going to succeed, but also be a reason they succeed, it's a beautiful thing. So I'll be forever indebted for that.
Charles: (23:14)
Both of you have talked either explicitly or implicitly in how you answered that last question about trust. Nancy, how do you engender trust, both in your relationship with Chris, but also in your role as the CEO throughout the agency?
Nancy Reyes: (23:30)
Yeah. I think there's a few components of trust, and I think we've been talking a lot about trust lately, just because we wouldn't have gotten through the past year without it. One is the ability to be vulnerable in the partnership with Chris or even at the agency in general, the ability to let the true reality set in and be shown to people. We both struggled during the pandemic. I struggled, I'm a parent, there's social justice issues. We were all very, very vulnerable, and showing that, and being free with that, I think does a lot to engender trust because people then believe in the sincerity and the authenticity of what we're saying of the experiences that we have.
So that I think is an important component of our relationship, and also just how we project as leaders inside the agency. That doesn't mean that we don't set an agenda, we don't set objectives, we don't provide clarity to the company and try to execute that in a really transparent with what we're trying to accomplish and achieve and what we need people to do, but when you pair those two things together, the idea of being vulnerable with the need to lead people forward, that is to me a really clear way to exhibit trust, because it also just provides a reciprocal back, people feel that we will trust them, to Chris's point, not to fail, that they can be vulnerable, that they can succeed, that they can ask questions.
But I think we have to exhibit those qualities as leaders if that's what we expect the agency to accomplish.
Charles: (25:06)
How do you balance that with the confidence that people are looking for from a leader?
Nancy Reyes: (25:13)
It's interesting because one of the things that I've learned, I've had a lot of coaching through my years in leadership, and there was something that's always stuck with me, which is, to become who I want to be, I just need to be more of who I am. And I have realized that every time my more human side shows, it's like the following builds bigger. And I remember early on in my time at Chiat, my husband was diagnosed with appendix cancer and it was really scary, and I had to take three months off, and we were really worried about whether or not he was going to make it. And I showed all of that to the agency because I couldn't contain it. I couldn't contain it.
And what I found was that while I was gone for three months, the agency moved forward maybe more, more quickly, faster, more progressively than the month that I had been there prior. And so that became a data point for me. And so I actually don't think that I show my vulnerability as much as I should or as I could. And so I think that if anything, I probably have to rotate more that way than just show the confidence. I think people would say, "She can be tough, she's tough." But hey, that's probably what they say a lot about me. So I actually think I could use a little bit more vulnerability than the other way around.
And I think that, again, just the proof of any time I've ever let myself go, certainly this summer I had quite a number of moments where I just couldn't contain myself and I couldn't run a meeting, I think there was more confidence in my leadership then than potentially at any other time.
Charles: (26:53)
Chris, as a CCO, you're obviously responsible for a part of the business that is all about taking risk, right? I mean, you can't be successful unless you're prepared to take risks. How do you go about it engendering trust within the people that are around you? And how do you go about making sure that you and Nancy have that as a foundation of your relationship?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (27:11)
Well, with the creative department or with the agency, I think I've probably thought a lot about in my journey to leadership, I think having a much more focused position previously. I think I've been very conscious about consistency because I think that's what people crave, is that people can understand your decision-making process. And I think sometimes in the creative world, I think people are a little unfocused around that. So that's a very conscious decision so creatives all know how I deal with things. I think the other thing is, I do think I have a funny inverse with Nancy where I think sometimes I come across as more nice, sometimes than I really feel like I am.
I think I present really nice, but I think the thing that helps me is, I swear I'm really nice, but I'm not going to let bad work out. Or bad work goes out, I am not going to not say that it's not that good because I cannot betray that. So I think I have a desire to have great interactions and try to make people good, but then there's this other thing where I will not tell someone a bad idea is a good idea, and I will not tell someone a mediocre idea is good either. And I think that probably was not as helpful earlier in my career, but now at this moment, I think that's that consistency, and that's a sort of transparency that I can provide as a creative leader.
And then when it comes to trust with Nancy, I think we… Generally, I feel like we talk all the time and we're always checking in on each other. I don't think people check in on Nancy as much because they assume she's got it and she's rocking. And I don't know if people make the same assumption about me, but I do feel like we do a lot of cross-checking. And in that, I think we also do spend a good amount of time making sure the other... I think we focus on our relationship, that's what I'll say, is I think it's a conscious thing, it's not that we free-wheel and run and gun, but I will say to Nancy three days later, "In that meeting when I was suggesting that, did that bother you?"
And I think there's a desire, without being exhausting, because that's another thing you really don't want to do, especially in times like this, there's a strong desire to be as open as possible. I think another strong compliment I can pay Nancy is I think really incredible, and I've said it before, is that in this business and in life, there's very few people that say what they mean and mean what they say, but you will always get that with Nancy. But I think my version of it is when we're fine-tuning stuff, I will ask her questions, I will be like, "How did you feel about that?" Or, "How are you feeling about that?" Because I want to make sure that there's never anything between us that would ever cause a slump or anything like that.
Because I think we also understand that I've worked at agencies where the business lead and the creative lead didn't gel. And even if they pretended, you knew, and you could even know when they were going through a rough time and you could tell when they were lacking alignment. So I think an important thing is to stay aligned. And again, the other that is if Nancy or anyone on the executive leadership team leads to some call and we may disagree about it behind closed doors, we'll have that debate, but when those doors open, you will never see anyone on the New York leadership team raise an eyebrow, turn the corner of their mouth. That is so important.
And I think Nancy and I are like that, and our whole leadership team is like that, where if we disagree, we are going to disagree well, and we're all going to support each other. And that sets the tone for the whole agency. So you'll never catch any one of us saying anything negative about any decision that's been made as a group. Because, again, important thing. You’ve got to disagree well, that's something we should all focus on doing more.
Charles: (30:02)
Yeah. I think it's a great phrase. Actually, was that a conscious evolution on your part? Were you both mindful of the need to disagree well?
Nancy Reyes: (31:09)
Yeah. I would say early on, I think that the leadership team even before Chris, it didn't gel, and that was obvious to everybody. And that was feedback we took, and that was why we also all do coaching just to make sure that we're all constantly working on our relationship. So for sure. And I think on disagreeing well, I think if Chris and I have ever disagreed on something or we're in a bit of a tiff, I do think there's always the reminder of how we feel about each other before we then talk about whatever is disagreed. And I find that to be very refreshing in a partner, in a Chief Creative Officer, to always come back to, "But hang on a second, we do care about each other quite a bit. Remember this is a thing that I struggle with. Oh, and that's the thing that you struggle with, okay, that's why we found ourselves here. Okay. Now, let's go back."
But if you start from a place of we love each other and this relationship, then all the rest will figure itself out. So it may sound a little hippy that we talk about our feelings, about each other a lot, but that's the whole thing. The whole thing is, if you can find people that you love to work with and then love what you do, I'm not really sure there's anything else you should go after.
Charles: (32:27)
Yeah. It doesn't sound hippy at all to me. In fact, I think that one of the dynamics that doesn't get talked about enough, actually, in leadership is the human side, because we all try to act like we're automatons and we're strategically focused, but financially aware, but we're human beings first, second, third, fourth, and probably fifth, right? And so, Chris, I'm wondering actually from your perspective through that lens, is it possible for you to be successful in the role that you have if you don't like the person on the other side of the table?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (32:56)
I mean, probably not. I think you could probably have short-term success. You could say, "Fuck the world, scorch the earth, I'm going to focus on awards." And I think by the way, I think that actually happens or has happened in industry. But no, I don't think you could build something that can last for a moment. I think all the work we're doing right now, I think we both feel we are set back and we surge forward, and we’re set back and we surge forward, but we feel like there's so much more mountain to climb and there's so much more that can be accomplished, but I think that thing we can be proud of is that I do believe we've done it the right way and that we've not shortchanged the cultural health or the long-term health of what Chiat/Day New York is in our quest for success.
And I think there's a world where this thing stands on its own. And I'll give you a work example, which is that on Cannes Week, which is this week, you look at a tremendous amount of dazzling work and sometimes there's agencies that show up really big in that space, but when you're watching television, you don't see ads from that agency, or if you do, maybe they're not nearly the caliber. And I think, again, this desire to have this place be a great place, not a great place for four people that win awards or a great place for four projects that win awards, but we're obsessed with raising the basement and finding the absolute best opportunity on every brand.
So yeah, I think you could probably be successful, but in not in a way that would actually give you any satisfaction or any real satisfaction as having achieved anything.
Charles: (34:36)
Nancy, I want to come back to the point you were making earlier about assimilating and through this context. It strikes me that tension sits very much at the epicenter of your entire story, your entire journey. You were an individual as a kid growing up who was forced to assimilate, you were a child who had to achieve, you are a woman in what has traditionally been a male-dominated industry. You are of Latin American descent in an industry that has predominantly been dominated by white people. How do you find yourself in all of that expectation and in all of those different reference points?
Nancy Reyes: (35:14)
I think I've been talking about this a lot because on the one hand, I think that whenever I struggle with it emotionally, I come back to the rational side of, “Well, okay, I've earned this.” I've earned this moment to be on this podcast with you, Charles. I earned this new business, when I earned this relationship with Chris. If I can in my worst times of feeling like, whether it's imposter syndrome or how did I get here, I go back to the facts, and the facts help me for sure. That is how I counterbalance the emotional side, so I can be quite emotional on the one hand and quite rational on the other. The thing that I can't quite work out, and I don't know if I'll ever work it out is, if I didn't have to assimilate... Like, did assimilation help me or hurt me?
On the one hand, I'm the CEO of a great agency and I have a great partner to boot, it seems like I made out okay. I have an amazing husband and two kids and things look great. So maybe that's good, but what I don't know is, if I didn't have to assimilate, just who would I have been? Am I fully myself or not? I sometimes get distraught trying to answer that question, would I have more Latin? That I think sometimes those of us who deal with intersectionality, I think get into that, like, “Am I Latin enough? Am I white enough? If I made it through all this stuff, did I pass as white? Is that what I was trying to do or what?” I don't know. And then that was like, "Oh God, just another thing I have to figure out about myself." And it becomes exhausting.
And then I just like, say, "I'll figure it out later." So that's the truth, some parts of it I can manage, and I have tools to help me manage through some of those things. I certainly don't sit and wonder whether or not I should be the CEO of the agency, damn right I should, I can do that for myself. I think the larger question about my identity and who I should be, who I would have been, that, I have to be honest, I still struggle with, I'll probably struggle with that for quite some time, but I think that's okay. Again, the vulnerability of talking about it, of showing it, of sharing it with people, as long as I feel safe enough surrounded by people that are truly interested in helping me and understanding where I'm coming from, I don't mind spilling my secrets.
I'm not perfect and everything is not tied up with a bow. And I think that can be pretty wonderful too.
Charles: (37:49)
Have the last 15 months encouraged you to share that, explore that more openly than you might otherwise have done, do you think?
Nancy Reyes: (37:56)
For sure. For sure. One, we've started ERGs at the agency and it is nice to have a community of people that I can go to and release whatever maybe I haven't been able to release in a very natural and unguarded way. I think secondly, I think all of the social issues that have come up have started to allow us the opportunity to just say these things and what part have we played in it? And where does the industry find itself? And can we still be brave and creative while we pursue social justice? There's so many topics that I think I have felt the ability, the opportunity to talk about all of that stuff and feel okay doing so.
So I do think the past 15 months I've done a lot to progress that conversation, and probably in that conversation, while everything isn't perfect, there's progress just in having the conversation, certainly.
Charles: (38:55)
Do you have any regrets in general, as you look back over the last 20 years?
Nancy Reyes: (39:01)
I don't think I do. I try very often to... I can do this other thing, I think quite rationally, which is like, it is what it is, so now what? I find that sometimes the more I go back in the past and say, "I wish I would have, I wish I would have. I wish I would've," I torture myself with that. And so I think I love, it is what it is, now what? I think I would rather operate from that position of strength than then to try to think about what I would have done differently. It all led me here, and this here, is pretty great.
Charles: (39:41)
Chris, as a white male, it's easy to assume that life's a straight line for you. I know that's not true. What are the tension points that you struggle with?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (39:50)
Well, I think I am a head case and so I think Nancy knows. I think I like to think like, good day, I'm like that duck who's pretty smooth over the water, but there's a few people in my life that know what's going on under the water. And I'd like to answer it in two parts, which is one, I think I am… Probably my general feeling is I know I excel at the creative part of this, but I also recognize I am someone who is very... I was worried at one point that I would never be really successful because I read that Bill Belichick and Tom Brady are more angry at losing than they are happy at winning.
And I think in my life I felt like I probably was very comfortable at losing, I actually enjoyed the thrill of trying to win. And I thought I could really enjoy a victory because I was pretty okay with getting in one way or the other knocked to the ground. So I think in general, I think my feeling is one of a real appreciation of not only what I get to do every day and who I get to do it with, but also to find myself in this position, because I don't think of myself as a natural winner, at least not in the conventional sense. But I think right now as a white male, I'm conscious of tremendous amount of things that I wasn't conscious of before. And I think there's been a lot of discussion around uncomfortable conversations.
And for me, the version of that is that as a creative, I try to listen and then I try to come up with an unexpected solution. I think that's essentially the job. And I think I've just learned that there's just so much more listening than you could ever imagine as compared to solving a problem for like a laundry detergent, you don't need to listen to that much, but some of the problems that we're tackling now are a lot more difficult than laundry benefits. So I think I've learned to sit in the discomfort for me of listening and listening and listening and not trying to solve anything and getting comfortable in not trying to quickly figure out a way to make something better.
So in a weird way, I'm engaged in, on a personal level, probably the greatest creative project I've ever been on because I've never listened to more inputs and tried to understand more things than I have. And I have certainly not try to solve anything, but I'm still being briefed and trying to understand things better. So that's a very interesting moment for me now, and to resist the urge to try to solve something quickly and put something to rest, because that's the other thing we do well, is we solve the laundry detergent problem for 2021 and move on to the soda problem for 2021. So, it's been very interesting for me because I've never been like that before. So that's where I am.
Charles: (42:49)
Last two questions for you both. Let me start with you, Nancy. How do you lead?
Nancy Reyes: (42:55)
That's a good question. How do I lead, Charles? Well, I think we talked a little bit about some of those things today. I think I lead with a little bit of vulnerability, a lot of trust. I think the other thing I'll say that has been a key part of leadership is, I was once told this by a very junior business person that spending time on the people who share your values will fill you up more than trying to convert those that will never be happy and drain you. And I think that, if you can put all those things together, if you can create that community of people that you can fill each other up, you can be vulnerable with them, you trust one another, and you're clear and direct and honest about where you want to go, I think that's a pretty good recipe for leadership.
Charles: (43:53)
Chris, what about you?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (43:55)
I guess my best guess, because I have not thought of an answer for this ever before would be, I would like to think with a sense of optimism because I am happy to be here. I have an incredible part. I'm working with someone that does fill my cup every day when we do it. And part of the industry is, it's always going to be challenging and there's no clear runs for anyone. So to embrace the ups and downs with that incredible belief that with the right team, anything is possible, I'd like to think that I will not waiver in that approach.
We've had some bad days and some bad weeks, and going into the pandemic, we had a year of explosive creativity ahead, and that all got canceled. And it was a matter of days before Nancy and I said, "Well, what are our goals now?" And it went from doing the biggest product launch we'd ever done to protecting people’s jobs and not having to lay anyone off during the pandemic. But I suppose that is fun, that's creativity I suppose, find another way, find another goal, what's the win? What's that thing we can achieve? And then get as many people on board as possible.
Charles: (45:16)
And last question for you. Chris, what are you afraid of?
Chris Beresford-Hill: (45:20)
I am afraid of everything and I am afraid of absolutely nothing. I have failed at more things than most people have attempted. I am okay losing. I don't want to, but I'm not afraid, because I'm actually more excited about the thrill of making something happen and something good happening than I am afraid about landing in the dirt. But that said, I'm also a nutso. So, Nancy also knows I'm stressed about everything at the same time, but not afraid, I don't think.
Charles: (45:55)
Nancy, what about you?
Nancy Reyes: (445:58)
I think that maybe the only thing I'm afraid of is ever questioning… any self-doubt for me, meaning so much so that I lose myself. So anytime I think that phrase that I told you, ‘to become who I want to be, I need to be more of who I am,’ that anything would jeopardize that, that there would be a question of who I am or who I need to be that would rattle me enough to fall off of that. I think I have enough will to push it off, but I can see that sometimes, people saying, "You should be more of this, you should do more of this. I don't know why you and Chris do this." And I actually think sometimes, again, doubling down on who I am and who we are, is the answer. It's always the answer.
Charles: (46:53)
I think it's so interesting listening to the two of you for the last 45 minutes or so. I think as we all know, real partnerships, true, authentic, powerful partnerships are rare. And it's evident just listening to the two of you about how much care you have for each other and for the people around you, and the humanity that you both bring to it, which seems to me at least to be a really powerful foundation for why this is working so well. And I hope it continues for as long as you both want it to. I wish you both nothing but the best going forward.
Thank you both.
Nancy Reyes: (47:24)
Thank you.
Chris Beresford-Hill: (47:25)
Thanks, Charles.
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