Judy Jackson of WPP
Why Great Leaders Are Honest About Their Weaknesses And Their Strengths
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 337: Judy Jackson
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Judy Jackson. She is the Global Head of Culture at WPP which makes her responsible for providing the vision and strategy for building a culture that embraces 100,000 people.
There’s no one size fits all approach that satisfies that brief. It’s a role that requires a three dimensional view of human beings.
“Be comfortable with your strengths. Focus on those strengths and be comfortable letting people know what you're good at and really what you're not good at. I think that's the gift or message that I would give people. Don't be afraid to let people know who you are, the good of you and the not so good of you.”
Leaders aren’t particularly fond of displaying their weaknesses and vulnerabilities. After all, it takes time, work and a lot of sacrifice to reach a position of power. Why would you give someone the ammunition to knock you off that perch?
How very 2019 of me.
Leaders are going to have to get used to showing up as fully formed human beings - flaws and all. Because the pandemic has made us all more conscious of who we want to spend time with. Who we trust and who gives us hope.
It’s also forced us - or perhaps better said - allowed us to show each other who we really are. Not the bib and tuckered, booted and polished professionals who think strategically and execute unerringly. But the harried humans who wear blue fuzzy Birkenstocks, whose offices are squeezed into the corner of their bedrooms and whose families don’t always provide the cathedral-esque silence appropriate for the seriousness of the Zoom call we’re participating in.
If, after all of that, you think Judy’s wrong and you’re going to go back to showing the people that work for you only the good of you, you’re going to miss out on a couple of important opportunities.
The chance to unlock your full potential. And the chance to help others unlock theirs.
Here’s Judy Jackson.
Charles: (02:21)
Judy, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Judy Jackson: (02:25)
I'm thrilled to be here, thank you.
Charles: (02:28)
When did creativity first show up in your life?
Judy Jackson: (02:33)
Creativity first showed up in my life, I think, when I was around eight years old. One of my sisters, who is about seven years older, was an actress. And she went to a performing arts high school in New York City and she'd come home with all her scripts of plays and practice improvs and I was her student. I was her test case. And before there was like karaoke, she would bring home a lot of the show tunes that she'd practice. So one of them that I remember we would practice in the mirror at our house in Bed Stuy, was, oh, Ethel Merman's from Gypsy. "Together, wherever we go, with you for me and me for you, whatever we do, we'll muddle it through together, wherever we go."
Honestly, I can't sing. But, yes, so she would, you know, share ideas on improvs of ideas on scripts or bring home scripts to practice on. And, eight or nines year old, you know, I fell in love with theater and I fell in love with her, of course. And just the idea of making things up and playing make-believe through theater, through acting. And, yeah, that's influenced me today. And so even when I do presentations at work, I always tell my team, it has to be theater. We want to make it theater.
So, not your typical presentations, and sometimes they go a little left. But certainly they are not the norm. So that's where it started, with my wonderful sister, Irene.
Charles: (04:13)
Where did you grow up?
Judy Jackson: (04:15)
Brooklyn, New York City, Bed Stuy, a neighborhood now where the homes are worth millions of dollars but not when I was there. But yeah, we grew up in Brooklyn in a household and, you know, in some homes, they were very stable homes with mothers and fathers. It was a Black neighborhood and there was some homes where people were dying from drugs. Or late at night you hear projects nearby where people were being shot.
So it was a very interesting neighborhood that now has really changed over the years. But in my little household, there are four children that were very, very close to each other.
I lost my parents when I was 16. My parents were both ill. My father had a heart issue for most of my life. Although they were both young, and my mom died of cancer when I was 16. First my dad died, and then that same year my mother died. So my sisters were my escape. They were my motivators. They were the ones that helped me go through college. They were the ones that inspired me. So I really didn't have the benefits of parents, per se, but I had the influence of parental influences throughout my life.
I was the baby of the family. And my sisters and my brother really took care of me. I was their doll. And so, you know, it's funny. I don't miss not having parents. I don't really know what that would have been like, but I did not miss feeling loved.
Charles: (06:00)
How did you get your perspective of the broader world? How did you get awareness to the broader world outside of that tightly knit community?
Judy Jackson: (06:10)
I had the benefit of not knowing what I couldn't do, and I had the benefit of not knowing what I couldn't ask. I had the benefit of not knowing who could I ask questions of or be friends with. I don't know where that came from, this sense of… maybe because I didn't have parents, I didn't have this thing over me that said, “You can't do this or you can't be that.” And maybe because my sisters were so much older, you know, I had a bit of an old soul. So, I've just been lucky that I've been around all different kinds of people, all different types of managers who took me in who let me see the world through their eyes, through reading.
I'm not sure where my ability to be open to new ideas and new experiences came from. And I can't say I necessarily had a slew of new ideas and— well, ideas always, but experiences maybe not. But I've always been open, because I never, I don't think I've ever been around individuals in my family who put those restraints on me. They only gave me lots of love. So through love.
Charles: (07:27)
What an incredible foundation for a life.
Judy Jackson: (07:31)
In some ways. I mean, in some ways it is a great foundation because I've learned to appreciate the gift of love. But I've also candidly suffered through a lot of loss. And, you know, the loss of my parents, although my sisters helped to raise me, one died of breast cancer at the age of 32. The other one died of colon cancer at the age of 38. My sister who's 32, her husband died of leukemia the same year she died at the age of 37. I, you know, took care of all of their details, as their younger sister. I adopted one of, the sister that was 32, I adopted her daughter who is now an adult.
So yes, an incredible foundation, but a foundation that had a lots of cracks in it (laughs) that had to be filled in some way. But yet, Charles, always with the, I think, the feeling of being grateful that I got to be here and that there's a reason why I must be here after so much loss. And so there must be a legacy that I'm supposed to leave. There has to be a reason, right, behind the things that happen to us. For my brother, who is alive, those tragedies changed him in a different way. It made him make the decision to remove himself from society. And not participate in the journey, the type of journey that I participated in.
So two different… two experiences, but two different ways of looking at it. I look at it as in terms of I'm grateful for each day that God's given me. And that's, I guess, just the luck of the draw. That's just how it happened, showed up for me.
Charles: (09:26)
Have you ever had periods where you've lost that sense of optimism? I mean to go through that kind of loss, that kind of tragedy, so much of it, so compacted together, so closely together. Have you always managed to maintain this sense of optimism? Because most people, I think, would've chosen a different path or would've had a different perspective about that.
Judy Jackson: (09:43)
I've always maintained that sense of optimism. And candidly, probably it's because work has been my escape. Work has been a good, safe place that is predictable. You know what's going to happen pretty much. You can get reinforcement from the positive work that you do. And so, you know, it has been, you know, sort of my safety net, the place where I can get that feeling, that same feeling of foundation that I once had. So that was my escape.
Luckily, it came with promotions and a rise in my career, but not by choice, certainly by chance, by needing something to hold onto. And work was that something.
Charles: (10:34)
Before we move onto your career path, I always feel a responsibility to ask this question particularly in these times. Did you experience racism growing up?
Judy Jackson: (10:44)
Surprising to say, Charles, not a lot of it. I grew up in a very Black community. So, growing up, no. I grew up in a Jamaican household where, you know, Jamaica being Black, that's what you expect. You expect Black leadership. You expect Blacks to own businesses. So I was sheltered by quite a lot of that. I certainly experienced more of that, you know, or some of that, when I started working and experiencing through others because of the roles that I play.
But no, growing up, even though I lost my parents and, you know, had three jobs while going through college to survive, maybe I was just too focused on survival, but I don't have the typical experiences and stories that other people might share. It makes me feel bad sometimes. Like what did I do wrong? I don't have these horrible stories to share with you. But, no, I was focused on survival. I was focused on, am I going to have a 25 cent bag of potato chips for dinner tonight? Or maybe some guy'll take me out to dinner and I'll have a real meal. I mean, you know, truly, that was my focus. And I didn't really have space for anything else.
Charles: (12:05)
Do you think of yourself as a survivor?
Judy Jackson: (12:07)
Oh, absolutely. Gloria Gaynor, "I will survive. I will survive." Yes. My [inaudible], my song when I think about it. I will survive. Absolutely, resilience is in my DNA. If someone describes me, they'll say— and I've heard this. People will say, "Oh, Judy, she's resilient." I bounce back. I immediately think to, okay, so great. You know, we have this whatever it is that we have to solve, family, work. How do we bounce back? How do we make this work? How do we make lemonade out of this?
And that's primary because it's just the way I grew up. That's the way I had to grow up. You just, you have to find a way to survive. It's not even a choice. It's simply a way of life for me. So, yes, I am a survivor. And candidly, in 2020, who isn't? Who's not a survivor that's still here, right? So, yes, I consider myself a survivor.
Charles: (13:10)
So when you have that kind of resiliency, when you have that kind of sense of optimism, which clearly you do, does that make it challenging? Does that make it harder for you to see other people's circumstances and say, "Hey, listen, that's not that tough." I mean, how do you see other people's struggles in the light of what you've lived through?
Judy Jackson: (13:35)
I think I see... When people have issues and when I talk to people about any struggles that they may have, I do think that I have quite a lot of compassion and empathy. But I do think I'm tough in that I expect a lot from people, and I expected that you can make this work. My challenge is that because I've had so much… so many gifts from my sisters, that it's hard for me to let people do it on their own. So I'm very often the one that says, "Okay, let me jump in. Let me see how I can help you. Let's…." And I overextend and I burn out. So I think my problem is that I don't give people enough of a chance to figure it out on their own when they should. You know, I guess the problem of being maybe even an enabler at times, thinking that that helps. So I guess later on in life I'm learning to hold back some or even more, but my definition of helping was, “Okay, let me be there right there with you. And in some ways, do the work for you,” which is not the right answer.
Charles: (14:57)
But difficult to resist, right, especially when you've, when you've had the experiences that you've had. Especially when you've had support and being in an environment in which you felt protected. It must be hard not to want to jump in and help people all the time.
Judy Jackson: (15:08)
Oh, it happens every day. Monday, I had a conversation with two members that are not on my team, but are helping me with a very important, initiative for Black women. And, they're sort of volunteering out of their normal job responsibilities. And they've been doing this work with me for over a year. And a part of me said, "I need to ask them if they still want to continue in 2022." I mean it's been a lot of work. They have full-time jobs. Do they really want to do this?
The other part of me said, "Judy, don't ask because you know the answer you're going to get is no, I need to give this up. I've had enough." But the Judy that I really want to be decided to ask the question and said, "Hey, you know, you've been doing this for a year. I know it's a lot. Love what you've been doing, but do you want to continue in 2022? And take two weeks to come back to me and tell me what you think." And they came back with, "Judy, we think we need to just pass this wonderful opportunity onto someone else." And I got a little mad at myself and said, "Dammit, why did I ask that question? You know, I now have to make sure I have two other people that help and, you know, had I not said something I'm sure I would have had them to at least midway 2022.
But, I don't want people to be like me. I don't want people to be… you know, to feel like they have to overburden themselves or feel afraid to say, "Hey, I need to pause." So, I'm glad I did it, and actually it worked out. You know, there were other people that are willing and happy to sign up. But I do tend to be the mother at work more than maybe I need to be, and I do tend to over care and, you know, want to make sure that everybody's okay. And maybe sometimes as a manager/leader that's not, may not be the strategy personally. But I do think it's the right way to go.
Charles: (17:13)
it's a great reference point, actually, for part of the conversation I want to have with you, which is I've been talking to a lot of different leaders over the last few weeks. And one of the themes that is coming up more and more and more and more is the need for leaders to have empathy. And not empathy in the sort of textbook version of ‘this is what leadership looks like,’ but empathy in a completely different way. So, I was talking to Faith Popcorn a couple of weeks ago, and I said, "What do you think has changed about leadership? Or what needs to change about leadership?." And she said, "I think leaders need to really care about their people. For the first time ever.” That we can talk about leaders who've cared but she said, "They don't know the names of the kids of the people that work for them. And they don't really know what's going on in their lives. And they don't really have time for it." And she said, "I'm not sure they really care that much, truthfully.
Judy Jackson: (17:39)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles: (18:00)
“They've got a lot of responsibilities and they've got a lot of pressure on them. And so, I'm sure they're kind." But this idea of really caring for other people from a leadership lens is a really challenging one, I think.” And so I'm fascinated by the fact that you are somebody who clearly cares so deeply that you feel like you've had to pull back and that that's a struggle for you. And there's growing need for leaders to lean in. How do you navigate the tension of that? How do you, personally, navigate the tension of that? And then let's start talking about leadership at a broader level, because obviously you've got an extraordinary perspective on literally thousands of leaders across the WPP arena.
Judy Jackson: (18:37)
Well, I have gained a reputation of a… someone described it to me, a coach very recently. I was talking about how I can over care and sometimes take on more than I should. And they said, "You know, Judy, that's just you. Your leadership language is love."
Charles: (18:54)
Mmm.
Judy Jackson: (18:54)
And then someone else said the same thing to me about a year ago, someone used to work for me. They were being interviewed about me for an award I was going to receive. And they used the same word. "Judy leads through love." And, you know, now that's popular. I think a few years ago maybe that wasn't so popular. Charles, it's been… I've been through burnout. I had to take a sabbatical for six months from WPP and I came back in June. Because of caring so much or taking so much on my shoulder and then, of course, all that we went through, the pandemic and racial inequities, I take my work so personally. So, I guess I have an alternate or different point of view than most leaders now that are, you know, looking to lead with empathy and compassion and love. I'm learning to pull it back a little bit so that I can save some for myself.
Because they say you have to feed your own soul first before you can give to others. And I am so grateful of what my sisters did for me. I'm so surprised that I'm still alive, candidly. Losing my... My mother was 49 when she died. My father was 47. He was younger than my mom, although they died the same year. So, I really look at each day as a gift and I say, "Oh, my God, am I still here?" Did they miss me? Did they miss when I was supposed to leave?
So, that does make me want to be there for others. Maybe it's part of wanting to leave a legacy. Maybe it's because it's knowing that I was given so much, by others who had so little, others that were dying at the time, but wanted to make sure Judy went through college. I had one of my sister [inaudible] said, "You know what? Before I die, I want to make sure you go to charm school because you're going to need that." You know, having growing up in Bed Stuy.
So I had these people that made these sacrifices. So it's hard not to want to sacrifice for others. I'm just trying to learn how to do that in a way that doesn't put too much of a cost on myself.
Charles: (21:17)
So, if you're giving advice to leaders who feel the need, or hear the call to become more empathetic, where would you help them draw the line? What is not enough in terms of empathy? And what is too much?
Judy Jackson: (21:32)
That's a hard question. Well, I have leaders, and my company is a British company. So if that gives you any insight into my—
Charles: (21:46)
I have a little insight into that, yes. I understand that.
Judy Jackson: (21:50)
Well, I try to tell my leaders and, you know, I'm close to some of them, very, very much so. So, for them it's more about, get to know your people, have to be curious, be in smaller settings, not always these big town hall settings. I try to help them bring small groups of people together and be vulnerable and share, not just listen, which is important to their story, but share their own personal stories of growth, particularly around what's happened in the last year. So it's a lot easier to help leaders be better listeners, to be more engaging, to be more empathetic, to be more of themselves, to be more authentic. And I'm really good at bringing that out in them.
In terms of when it gets too far, I haven't seen leaders that go too far except myself. I think there's just so much more we need to do to get to know the people that are across that Zoom screen, and even more than when we get to go live. So, I think, for me, the beauty has been, who I am in the past has been somewhat frowned upon, like, it's too much, pull back. You're too personal. Too intimate with people. Whereas now it's become a thing, you know. It's become in style. So the challenge hasn't been to help leaders pull back at all. The challenge has been to find those opportunities to help them lean in.
Charles: (23:25)
So given that new expectation, given that new requirement almost, that leaders show up in different ways and lean in, to use your phrase. There's a lot of pressure therefore on human beings to start to act differently, to be vulnerable as you just mentioned. We all look to the people at the top of the organization. Who's responsible for taking care of the leaders and what they need, in order to become those people? Because that's not a, that's not an easy shift for a lot of people to make, right? You often get to be the leader because you're seen to be the strongest. You're seen to be the bravest. I mean, the classic sort of traditional archetypes. But there's some truth to that. You have to be willing to put yourself out there to get to leadership positions.
And suddenly we're telling them, "No, no, be vulnerable. Be open. Be empathetic. Be available. Take emotional risk, essentially." Which is demanding and challenging. So who do you think takes care of the leader in all of that?
Judy Jackson: (24:20)
Well, I'm hoping we learn to take care of each other. So, for example, if I am having a bad day, I am not keeping that to myself. I'm telling my team. I might be on a team call with other individuals who may be peers or my junior and say, "I'm having a bad day, guys. You may not get all of me today." And then chances are someone else on the call will say, "Oh, gee, you know what's going on?" And we take care of each other. I believe in asking for help. I didn't always believe that. You know, growing up, in a Jamaican household, I felt I had to be strong and, you know, you can't really show that you're weak. I think you get help by when you let people know you need help. And that people could be team. That people could be whoever your peers are. That could be therapists. Yeah, I believe in therapy. I believe in paying for help.
I think that sometimes we think that there's this person above us that is taking care of us and I'd like us to think that we're taking care of each other. You're taking care of me by asking me these questions, by letting me be introspective, by helping me think about, “Oh, you know, there's some lessons learned that I should make sure I carry on. Mmm, there's somethings that maybe Judy, you need to stop doing as I listen to you.” Every encounter is a way to take care of each other if we let others know that we're here for each other. And I think the more you take risks by letting people know what you need, the more surprised you'll be about what you get back.
Charles: (26:01)
Couldn't agree with you more. So you are responsible for WPP's culture, right?
Judy Jackson: (26:08)
No, I'm not responsible for WPP's culture. Every single 106,000 people are responsible for WPP's culture. However, I am a catalyst—
Charles: (26:20)
(laughs)
Judy Jackson: (26:21)
— to ensure that we have the type of culture that makes people do their best work and feel like this is the place to be.
Charles: (26:29)
I think that's such a brilliant distinction. And shame on me for voicing it the other way. If you're successful in this role, what will success look like?
Judy Jackson: (26:40)
You know some basic ways in which we measure success, or that I would measure success. Certainly some are basic, that we're having conversations that we've never had before. Being the type of company we are, and what that traditionally has been as a British-run company in advertising, you know, talking about emotions, we have these safe rooms where we're talking about some of the difficult things that's happened over the years. That wouldn't have happened three years ago. So the more and more I can see, find people that are feeling safe and comfortable having those tough conversations.
You know, I had a tough conversation, what I would have considered a tough conversation with my CEO and with some of our DEI leads around what we're doing to progress over the last year. And probably three years ago, we would have simply just all agreed with each other and walked away and said, "Great conversation." Then privately had other conversations. But now we're having tough conversations in the room and asking the tough questions and holding ourselves accountable. I don’t know how you measure that, but that's the measure for me that when I walk into a room and there's honesty, when I walk into a call and someone could say, "You know, I'm not really feeling well today. Did you know that my son just was tested with COVID?"
Or that we're not competing with each other, but we're helping each other be better, because we have all these competing companies. But then we have real metrics around our pulse surveys and how people are feeling. You know, are we feeling more like we belong, as an organization? Are we feeling that if we have an issue that we need to raise that we can raise it? So we do have things in place that are more formal that monitor our progress. We look at our hiring. We look at our attrition, those kinds of things. So those are the measurements that are important.
But to me, the real measurement is the conversations that I can have, the conversations other people can have. How people show up on a call, the fact that like tonight, my CEO is being interviewed by an organization, a Black organization. They're going to ask him some tough questions about what's changed you, Mark Read, over the last year? How are your Black employees feeling today? And I can feel confident that he can answer those questions with authenticity and honesty. I feel confident that he will not try to have a PR conversation but a real conversation. I'm proud of that. Those are the measures that matter to me. How people feel and act every day, even though we have these numbers that we look at, as well.
Charles: (29:27)
So trying to create a culture that supports, embraces, advocates for that kind of behavior, that kind of mindset, obviously is challenging at the best of times. Really tough in a global pandemic, I can only imagine. Has it changed the kind of people you're looking to hire? Is this about recalibrating to some extent the kind of people that fit into a culture like that, in addition to reframing and retraining the people that are already there?
Judy Jackson: (29:51)
Oh, definitely. It's also changing the language in terms of, in the past, you would talk about people that fit into their culture. And now people are talking more about what are the people that add to the culture. Because fitting in is… tends to be people more like you—
Charles: (30:08)
Yeah.
Judy Jackson: (30:08)
... versus being open to people who don't have the same experience as you, that didn't grow up in advertising, that didn't have a college degree. So, yeah, the type of people we're looking at, the places we're looking at are different. My concern is that this is sustained. You know, this all… a lot of our activity in all of our companies not just mine came out of a tragic situation, a murder. And I’ve been around for a long time, longer than I want to admit.
That's one thing I don't necessarily want to be openly too honest about. So you've seen the waves of, of, you know the focus on diversity, equity, inclusion or even diversity. And then, you know, something else takes its place. So I'm hoping that these conversations and the things that we're looking for don't change just because, “We just got a new client. We’ve got to fill the a job really quickly and we’ve just got to hire whoever is available that's out there, someone that knows the job.” And that will still happen to some degree because there are businesses to run, but I'm hoping we don't lose our focus of what matters and that what we really want to create and it's not just an answer to a situation that occurred in 2020. But it's an answer to create a better company, a better business, a more profitable company, a company that you can be proud of. I'm hoping that's where we stay.
Charles: (31:33)
The kind of culture you're describing comes from one in which you're able to engender trust across all of your constituents. How do you go about creating trust at that level?
Judy Jackson: (31:45)
Oh, you know, I remember working at Wunderman, one of the agencies of WPP. And I mean, very common conversation, I had a conversation with one of our presidents. And I mentioned, "Trust me. You just need to trust me." And then I caught myself and realized, why should he trust me? This is one of our first conversations together. He was from Australia. I’m from the US, from New York. We had not established any basis for trust. And it was one of many ‘aha’ moments that I realized that I cannot demand trust of someone and nor can they demand trust of me. Obviously, we all know now that, you know, it's earned. And it's earned over time. It's earned through showing up for people. It's earned through showing up to meetings even on time. It's earned through delivering on your promise. It's earned on being your authentic self, whatever that is.
You know, part of the tactics that I use to exude trust is to let people know what they get when they buy or meet with me. So in other words, in the past, some people would say, even to something, Charles, that you brought up that, "She can't always be so optimistic or happy. I mean that's not real." And there are times that I've had conversations with our board members or CEOs and have said, "Let me just tell you who you're going to meet when you meet me, when you work with me. I'm going to be honest. I'm going to be overly enthusiastic. I'm going to be excited about culture because that is what drives me. That's what I thrive on. There are going to be moments that you might say, “This isn't real.” And let me tell you it is real because of the history and my life that I've had that's made me feel grateful for each day that I get to be alive.
So I also try to build trust by being open and honest about who I am. And hoping that that gives permission for that other person to be open and honest about who they are. So if I show up as Judy and consistent with the facets - because it's not all the same of who I am - then that generally gives people the permission to trust me because I'm giving trust to them. And making it safe, I think, to bring who I am. Knowing that who I am is sometimes not what you might expect in the role that I play.
Charles: (34:20)
I think there's such wisdom in that. The ability to declare, “This is who I am, this is what you should expect, this is me at my best, these are the ways in which you'll get the best out of me,” I think is such an important references point for leaders to become comfortable with.
But I think the ability to actually say all of those things, "This is who I am. This is how I lead. This is how I get— you get the best out of me. This is what I'm looking for from you," requires a sense of self that a lot of leaders never quite get to. And I wonder whether you think that that kind of, not quite formal but maybe more structured approach to declaring who I am as a leader might be a benefit to organizations.
Judy Jackson: (34:57)
I think a benefit for organizations are for people to be comfortable with being who they are and showing up who they are. And be comfortable letting people know what I am and what I'm not. And, be okay with that. I had a leader that I worked for once. Her name is Laura Lang. She was CEO of Digitas and, this is early in my career. I remember taking a walk with her to Starbucks. She was asking me how things are going and I said, "Well, you know, they're going okay, but I'm working on these budgets and these Excel charts and, I don't know. I'm just this is just driving me nuts." And she said, "Judy, why are you doing those things?" "I mean, well, because they're due and because, you know, that's part of what's in my agreement." "But you have people on your team. You have finance people. You have other people. You know, Judy, I have a CFO. I don't do my CFO's job. I hired you to inspire people, to bring out the best, to work on whatever programs I was excited about. I want you to do the things you do well. I don't want you to spend time on things that are distractions. That's what you have a team for."
That simple statement gave me permission to focus on what I do really well. Oh, it's okay not to be perfect. It's okay to let people know, "You know what? That's not my strength, but let me tell you who on my team is probably really what you need for that." I thought I had to be there for everything, and I realized that I don't. So I guess my gift to other leaders are to be clear about, you know, why we hired you. What are the gifts that you bring? And make sure there are other people that can, you know, supplement those areas or those gaps. But be comfortable with your strengths. Focus on those strengths. And be comfortable letting people know what you're good at and really what you're not good at.
And I think that's the gift or message that I would give people. Don't be afraid to let people know who you are, the good of you and the not so good of you.
Charles: (37:05)
You’ve seen leadership through so many different lenses over the years. What do you think are the myths of leadership?
Judy Jackson: (37:12)
Oh, I think the myths are that they know everything, that they have it all together, that they all lead such privileged lives. That they don't share your problems or issues, that you don't wear the same pants every day or same dress as you wear. We put them on such pedestals, you know, and that, for me, because I've not grown up thinking I had to do that or that that was the role I was supposed to play, I get to know people for who they are. So, if we could kind of dust off that pedestal and let— and recognize that, listen, we all, we're all trying to do a job. Yeah, some of us get paid differently and some of us have different titles. But at the end of the day, we're all here to do a job. And if we can do it better together, how wonderful that is.
And, we all go to the bathroom. We all have the opportunity to get COVID or not. You know, certainly that was a way to level set. This pandemic has helped us to level set the struggles that we all go through. Simply recognizing that we're all people and we all just have different jobs and roles that we play.
Charles: (38:27)
And what do you think has fundamentally changed as a result of the last couple of years?
Judy Jackson: (38:32)
I think people are becoming more and more comfortable recognizing that we're in this world together. And sadly to say, that any one of us can get sick. Any one of us can have a family member that dies. Any one of us could lose our jobs. Any one of us can have a contractor like, I'm getting some work done on my home, contractors that just can't show up because of whatever this, you know, two people got sick.
It's sort of level set that we all are facing similar, and sometimes the same, problems and issues. We have parents who are aging. We have people that we couldn't see in hospitals. The world has forced us to see each other through each other's eyes.
Charles: (39:22)
What do you think the future of the office looks like?
Judy Jackson: (39:27)
Well, I think we all hope it looks different than what it was. It's certainly given us an opportunity to have more flexible work schedules. It's helped us to hire people that weren't in that city that the job exists. I'm hoping that it's more collaborative, that when we come into the office it's for a reason. It's not to just sit behind desk and not engage. I know I've been to the office several times this year and each time it's been like a homecoming. "Oh, my God. It’s great to see you. Oh, I only saw you from the head up. I didn't realize how tall you are or how short you are or that you lost 30 pounds."
It's been sort of a new discovery of people in a different way and a welcoming of love that I, you know, you don't normally see. So I'm hoping that feeling of rediscovery and rediscovering people and having different types of conversations, and that we come to the office not just for a place to work, but a place to collaborate and do better together. And that it's more fun, that you look forward to coming to the office, because in the past it was, "Oh, it's Monday. I got to get to the office, or rather, I have to go to the office versus it's Monday and I get to go to the office."
So, I'm hoping we move from a conversation of, “I have to,” versus that, “I get to.” That's what I'm hoping for.
Charles: (40:57)
How do you think leadership is going to change over the next 12 to 18 months? What do you think has to change about leadership over the next year or so?
Judy Jackson: (41:05)
Leaders will be more and more human. Work and home life have gelled. I mean, people sometimes I think get away from home to go to the office to just get away from all of it, you know, because it's work and home all in one place. It's forced us to see people in their true light. The baby that's in the background, you know, the dog that's barking, whatever it is that makes us look and feel more human. I think we'll have a much more human, a more sensitive workplace. At my company we launched Mental Health Allies and are training employees to be not therapists but to be adjunct support for people who may be going through a tough time. I wouldn't have seen that a few years ago.
So the blend of work and the human element is becoming much more real, and I think the workplace will be just that much more human and humane.
Charles: (42:06)
And what are you afraid of?
Judy Jackson: (42:10)
I'm afraid we'll go back to the way things were. I'm afraid we'll say, "Okay, everybody, you need to be in the office five days a week. You need to be sitting behind your desk.” I'm afraid we won't have those conversations that say, "Charles, how are you really? No, no, no, Charles, I could tell that something's going on. Let's talk about it. Let's take a walk." I'm afraid instead we'll say, "Charles, tell me about that project you were working on last week. Is it due?"
I want us to learn and embrace the goodness, and there is goodness that has happened over the last 18 months to two years. I think we will. But I'm afraid it's hard not to let go of some of those old habits. So, that's what I'm afraid of, that we won't take these lessons and really change the workplace which, in effect, changes the world.
Charles: (43:02)
There are so many people that I have come to know over the last few years that describe you as one of the most important people in their lives, both professionally and personally. And, I'm amazed that we haven't met until now. I'm thrilled that we have, and I completely understand what they mean. Your optimism, your humanity is just infectious, and I thank you so much for coming on and sharing today.
Judy Jackson: (43:20)
Oh, Charles, I need to know who those people are so I can put them on my Christmas gift list, right? Thank you. It has been a joy and a pleasure to talk with you and I learned so much about me through talking with you. And I thank you for that gift.
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