Devika Bulchandani of Ogilvy
What role does love play in your leadership?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 368: Devika Bulchandani
Here’s a question. What role does love play in your leadership?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach their leaders to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
Before we start, I want to acknowledge the death of someone who played a big role in helping Chris and I to create the film editing company that we built in the ‘90s and 2000s.
Jim Garrett was a brilliant businessman and a gentleman. He was the founder of the award winning and internationally recognized production company, Garrett and Partners, and he worked with directors like John Schlesinger, Nick Roeg, Ken Russell and Richard Loncraine along the way. I’ve posted a link to his obituary in the London Times in this week’s show notes.
When we were conceiving our film editing company in 1994, Jim sat down with Chris and I over lunch in London, and gave us advice that formed the foundational DNA of a business which is still thriving almost thirty years later. Many of the principles and practices on which that business operates today came from that lunch. All of us who have spent any part of our careers working at the original Lookinglass or at the Whitehouse film editing companies owe Jim our thanks. His impact was and is enormous.
And now, on with the show.
This week’s guest is Devika Bulchandani. She’s the global CEO of Ogilvy. And her view of leadership includes an impassioned belief that seemed so obvious to me once she said it, but which I have never heard before.
“You know, my husband said to me the other day, he's like, "I don't understand how you hang up the phone and you tell some… you’ll be talking to somebody and you're like, ‘Love you.’" I said, "Because I do, I have affection for them.” Why is love such a precious commodity? Wouldn't the world be better by the way if we all just felt more of it?”
The business of running a business does not usually contain much discussion of love. You hear people say occasionally, “I love what I’m doing,” or “I love where I work.” You can see evidence of passion in some people, particularly business founders.
But the idea of saying “I love you” to a co-worker will send tremors down the backs of HR and Talent leaders across the entire spectrum of the creative industries.
And yet, as Devika asks, wouldn’t the world be better by the way if we all just felt more of it?
We live in a time of apparently limitless upheaval. And we will spend roughly a quarter of that time at our jobs.
Shouldn’t part of that upheaval be to challenge the norms under which we’re working?
Including the possibility that “I love you” might be a leading indicator of what it means to be a more human leader.
Where do you draw the line? And why?
Here’s Devika Bulchandani.
Charles (03:15):
Devika, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Devika Bulchandani (03:19):
Thank you so much for having me. I absolutely love the fact that it's called Fearless, so we're going to have a really honest conversation.
Charles (03:28):
Yep. I look forward to that. When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity playing a role in your life?
Devika Bulchandani (03:35):
I was five years old, and I grew up in a rather conservative Indian family. It was a joint family, which is not uncommon in India. So it was my father's... There were four brothers, and there were homes right next to each other. And I was... I have two older brothers, and my brothers were allowed to do everything, and I was never allowed to do things because I was always told, "Girls don't do that. Girls don't do that." So my five-year-old brain, I think it was five or six, somewhere, my five or six year old brain was like, "Okay, what do they have that I don't have?" And I had figured it out.
So I practiced so hard and I had to get really creative in how I learned to pee standing up, because in my mind, that was the only difference. You know, I was like, "They can pee standing up... If I can pee standing up, I can do everything." So that was the first sort of thing where I had to think of, like, how did the girl learn to pee standing up? So it was very creative. I tried lots of different ways of perfecting it without making a mess. And the moral of the story is, I can pee standing up really well right now.
Charles (04:52):
I think you are the first leader I've ever had on this podcast who has expressed that capacity, so… and certainly so vividly. Where do you think that, where do you think the courage... I mean, that's a courageous act, perhaps the physical aspects notwithstanding, but how, where did the confidence and the courage come to push back so hard against the status quo to say, "I am not going to allow the rules to define me"?
Devika Bulchandani (05:18):
You know, I don't know how to answer that question if I'm totally candid. If you talked to my mother, she'd say, I was born saying, whatever anybody said, I'd say, “No, I'm going to do it. No, I'm going to do it.” So, I don't know, I think some of these things are innate. And you know, when we talk about nature and nurture, I think there's really interesting things, because you have a nature, but then you also push back on the nurture side. And I think my biggest thing was how do I balance them? So how do I push back and have the confidence? And I had to learn this very young, coming from a very conservative Indian family, how do I balance it without making it into a fight? Because the idea of love and warmth and affection is very core to who I am.
So often, when we think about confidence and pushing back, especially in women, it takes on a role of... And because that's how we role model ourselves, right? We have to think about, well, how does somebody get ahead? And we role model ourselves on all the men because that's what they do. And to me, what was really important is, I tell people at work I love them because I'm like, I do, I spend so much time with them. If I don't feel love for them, then something's wrong with me. So that balance was the thing that I struggled with the most, is how can I bring the feminine side of me, and yet have the confidence to break the status quo? That was a really big deal.
And I don't know how to answer your question, where did it come from? I have no idea. And I think you learn it. I was conscious about it. I was intentional about how I wanted to be treated, and therefore, the only way the world would change is if I could treat everybody the way I wanted to be treated.
Charles (07:11):
That willingness to tell people that you love them, that you work with, would obviously be a red line for many leaders, maybe even most leaders. How do you balance that? And I understand the power of that is enormous. How do you balance that with the fact that there are some times you're going to have to let those people go?
Devika Bulchandani (07:29):
So here's the deal. 95% of people I think have potential, and are fundamentally good. Thinking anything other than that is kind of depressing for me, so because I wake up like... Can you imagine waking up and saying, "People are bad, and people don't have potential"? So this is my belief. My job as a leader is to unlock it.
I feel the most fortunate person in life today that I haven't had to let somebody go because of underperformance. I've had to have conversations with people to say, "The company's changing. This is not the right place for you at this time. It doesn't make you any less of a person." And that's not a hard conversation to have because it stems from a place of love to say, “This is not the right place for you right now, but I believe in you and I think you are incredible and here's where you can and should go,” and then actually help them land.
Now, I don't have to deal with, by the way, I don't have to deal with 15,000 people. So you are asking me the question, how do I deal with the people that I have to work with? I don't think it's a potential issue when you have to let people go. I think companies… you know, we always talk about what do you bring to the company? And I always say, "My job is to figure out what the company does for the people, not simply what they bring to the company." And if you set the right ambition for human beings, and you set a culture of just basic goodness, you'll be amazed at what can happen.
Charles (09:00):
And have you learned of this, or was this always instinctive to you? Because I think this is one of the characteristics that most leaders struggle with the most, which is the recognition of the fact that letting somebody go is an act of kindness, is an act of generosity, is an act of love. That if somebody is not a good fit, and life is short, careers are shorter, we should have the courage and the willingness to let people know that this is not the right place for you to be.
Devika Bulchandani (09:26):
You know what I think… again, I don't know whether this is learned behavior or innate, but I think we treat business with a different set of rules than we treat life. My fundamental belief is, or the way I approach it, to me, my life is my work, and my work is my life. My children are as involved in my struggles with what I do because I think these are all life lessons. We're talking about human potential, we're talking about things like ambition, greatness. They're life lessons. So what do I do with my son, who's going through a moment, let's say, where he's struggling? I don't just say, "Hey dude, you’re out the door," right? "Leave home." What do you do as a parent? What do you do as a brother, as a sister? And I don't understand why the workplace has a different set of rules.
So my philosophy has always been… when we talk about values at work, and I always say, if values at work are not congruous with your values in your life, then don't work at that place. Our values right now at Ogilvy are very simple. We do everything in “DO”, David Ogilvy, DO, it's an action word, they're his initials. It's do the right thing, do the best work of your lives, do it together. Guess what? That's kind of how you want to wake up in the morning, forget work. And I tell people this all the time. If you wake up in the morning, and you say, "You know, I just want to do the right thing, I just want to do the best that I can today and I want to do it with people not in an island," then this is the workplace for you. Not, these are the values of the workplace. I always say, “If these are the values in which you want to lead your life, then this is the workplace for you.”
Because the minute that's not congruous, we talk about bring your whole self to work. I'm like, "How can I bring my whole self to work when you tell me, 'My life values are different to my work values'? I can't bring my whole self." So I just think if we approach the workplace in the same way that we approach our lives, the workplace will be a lot better and our lives will be better because we're more fulfilled. Because I'm actually going to work now and fulfilling my life's work. And in my belief, work is always better, the business environment is always better when you approach it like that.
Charles (12:04):
Have you always wanted to lead? This strikes me as, you have such an instinctive and three-dimensional, multi-dimensional perspective about leadership and its place in life. Have you always wanted to lead? Did you grow up wanting to lead?
Devika Bulchandani (12:17):
Yes. I think since I was a little girl, I wanted to, mainly because I think the way I grew up, I wanted to show the world what a woman can do. And I'm very conscious about… early in my career, I think I emulated male behaviors and they did me well. It's not like I say I emulated them and they did me wrong. Being competitive, being focused. These are very typical if you do any research or in psychology, right? They did me well. But I think there was a moment and I was like, "I don't want to be a man as I lead." I really want to figure out, how do we lead in a different way? You know, my husband said to me the other day, he's like, "I don't understand how you hang up the phone and you tell some… you’ll be talking to somebody and you're like, ‘Love you.’" I said, "Because I do, I have affection for them.” Why is love such a precious commodity? Wouldn't the world be better by the way if we all just felt more of it? Like, really?
We talk about the world's problems today, right? And then we've made the one commodity or the one thing, one emotion that could solve all the problems. The most precious commodity. You don't say it in work, you don't feel it here, you don't feel it here. I don't believe that shit.
Charles (13:31):
When did that shift happen for you, the recognition that acting like a man was not the best way to lead like a woman?
Devika Bulchandani (13:38):
I was very lucky at some point in my career, at McCann, there was Nina de Sousa and she was a powerful… she was that chairman creative woman, and she never led like a man. And I think I saw her and I was like, "Wow, that can be done." Because to a certain point you just don't know, right? When I was in my mid 30s certainly, I was like, "I don't want to be that. I don't want to be this." And you struggle in your own head to say like, “Who am I trying to become?” And you do look at role models and there are very few at that point. So I was very, very fortunate. I've had some incredible men in my life, too. Harris Diamond prepared me for the job because you still have to do the job, you still have to be really good at the job.
And he put me through what I call a six-year training program that was brutal, that I would argue with him about. But he kept saying to me, "You will run something one day and you will be prepared." And boy, was he right. And I thank him for him, and not just thank him, he's from a learning set of the shrewdness of business, a massive mentor to me. And then Rob Riley, who just believed in me so much that I started believing in myself, and he's like my brother, or my… I don't know what to call him. And then I had Mark, who finally gave me the platform. Mark Read is the one who finally gave me this platform. And Nina, Nina de Sousa, I think all her lessons taught me how to use the platform in a way that was not going to be just business, but also be able to talk about, what should leadership be today?
I genuinely believe that we're not going to solve the problems today with the same rules, we're just not. We know it, right? You hear that all the time.
Charles (15:31):
I want to come back and talk about that in a second. But before we delve into that, you've been CEO for what now, three months?
Devika Bulchandani (15:39):
Three months.
Charles (15:41):
Is the job what you thought it was going to be? How is it the same, and how is it different than what you thought it was going to be?
Devika Bulchandani (15:48):
I don't think it's anything… I don't think it's different. I just think... No. I'm not sitting here going, “I'm so surprised.” If there's anything I'm surprised by, is how much people respond to… I don't want to say a different way of leading because it makes it sound like I figured out some panacea for the world. But, how much people respond to when leaders are not looking to dictate or mandate what happens. And actually sort of just believe in the potential of people. The thing I'll tell you with all this, Charles, I'm not by any means implying that excellence and ambition don't go hand in hand with this. And I talk about this often outside and even in the halls of Ogilvy all the time, to say, I'll debate anything. A way of doing work. What should our strategy…? Anything. And we need to discuss things. There are two things I tell everybody that are not up for debate, and that's the pursuit of greatness and doing it with goodness. Not up for debate.
Charles (16:58):
Does that create any kind of challenge from a day-to-day standpoint? Do people have a hard time reaching those two standards?
Devika Bulchandani (17:05):
Yes. It takes more work, by the way, because everything that I just said to you and I... And there are days I struggle with it, right? Struggle as in, "Oh my God," which is, it's a more approachable form of leadership. And there are days, by the way, I go, “Really? Do I really need somebody to send me this text?” And then when my moment of frustration over not having time is done, my answer is always, “Yes, I do want this to happen.” But is it all a walk in the park? No, it's much harder for me. In my office, we had frosted glass, just symbolically speaking. Let me give you two things. I had frosted glass in my office and the first thing I said is, "Change the glass. Make it clear." Because frosted glass symbolizes a leader who is not accessible. And I'm behind closed doors. Now I have to close my door very often because I'm talking to people. But I wanted the symbolism of visibility, the fluidity of energy to say, it is one. That's one. Two, I never have a desk in my office. It is a lounge.
Because a desk in the office is a power structure. It says, I'm sitting on this end, and the minute I say a desk in an office, what do you visualize? And if you Google ‘desk in an office,’ just Google it, and you will get images of a white man with his legs up on his desk, right? It's a power structure. And if you look at the height, the person in power always is slightly raised and the person who's coming to meet you is few inches. So I created a lounge, and this I did at McCann too, and I paid a lot of attention to the height of the seating, that it shouldn't feel high and low. Because these are all semiotics and symbols of power structures that I do not believe in.
Charles (19:14):
There are many, many easier ways to lead than putting the kind of thoughts, the kind of efforts, the kind of detail, the kind of passion that you bring. Why is leading well so important to you?
Devika Bulchandani (19:30):
I'm not here to be remembered or to say, what was this period just in terms of Ogilvy. I really want... and I'm very open about this. I want people to be 80 years old, 60, whatever it is, and be able to have a memory where I made a difference. That to me is the most meaningful thing. We'll all go to meetings, we'll all have good days, agencies will have good days and bad. To me, all of that is business as usual. I genuinely want someone to… to have made an impact on somebody's life, genuinely. Otherwise, it's all a waste of time.
Charles (20:15):
So the human part of this is really important to you?
Devika Bulchandani (20:18):
It's of paramount importance. And not just with our people, even with our clients. It is of paramount importance to me.
Charles (20:26):
You mentioned earlier on that you think the function of leadership, the role of leadership, the style of leadership has to be different, going forward. There has to be a new definition of leadership. How do you think leadership has changed over the last two or three years?
Devika Bulchandani (20:40):
Well, I think the first thing is just sort of the power structures have changed. I went to… I don't know if you're familiar with this, but last week, Angela Ahrends from the board invited me to go to the Summit for Moral Leadership. And it was really interesting. It was a day-long program at the Ford Foundation. And it was all the shift from formal authority to moral authority.
And what does that mean? And formal authority is a command and control. "I said so, therefore, we should." Whatever it takes, it's like profit at all costs. Those are the traditional sort of structures of formal authority. Moral authority’s different. It's not just shareholder value, it's stakeholder value. And I know we can talk about the pros and cons of that ‘til the cows come home. How are people treated? What are the decisions you make for the organization and for the kind of work you do that are going to benefit the world? So there's a genuine shift in that. And I think more and more leaders are going, “It's less about the financial legacy, but much more about the impact legacy.” It's like the legacy of impact.
Now for me, I always say the oppression of privilege. I grew up in a privileged sort of Indian household, but there's an oppression there, because you grew up in a certain kind of life, and you were meant to do a certain kind of thing, because otherwise, what would others say? What would others do? So I've always had this thing to say, "I want to do what's not right in institutions or religion or organized structure, what's actually right for people, for those that don't have a means, or cultural freedom.” You know, means is one thing, but then there's cultural freedoms, then there's societal and systemic sort of freedoms. How do we change that?
Charles (22:56):
The idea of leadership is changing dramatically, in ways that you're articulating. But I think people really struggle with, how do you take a traditional view of leadership that people have gained familiarity, they've grown habitual in terms of how they run businesses, and how do they start to think about this differently and then act differently? This is a powerful philosophy, but it's hard to make the transition, right? If you don't bring that to the table to begin with.
Devika Bulchandani (23:20):
You know, somebody asked me just 20 minutes ago a question and I was saying to them, "Here's the really... the thing about ambition,” right? Because we're talking about all this stuff with sounds soft. And then you go, "Well, how does the company do well?" My fundamental belief, fundamental belief, and I will prove it. I don't care who... I will prove it with Ogilvy, and I will prove it everywhere that I go. That if you lead like this, it is profitable for business. If I go back to sort of a slightly more philosophical approach. We are going to work really long hours.
I actually cannot do anything about that. And I'm pretty open about it. I wish I could get all the clients together, but they have their businesses to run. Business has a rhythm today, and we're going to work long hours because we are in the professional services business. It's a hard business. So the way I reframe ambition always is to say, “If it is a hard business, we're going to work long hours. Don't we want to be at the top?” What, why? “If we're going to do that, why would I strive for mediocrity?” And the minute you say that to somebody, you see light bulbs go off to say, "Duh. Yeah." You are going to put that work in everywhere. Everywhere you go. My responsibility is to unlock human ambition and then to create a culture that is also humane. So it's not just human ambition without being humane.
It's fun. We can't forget, at the end of the day, we have to have some damn perspective. A culture that is, we, human beings want to have fun, they want to connect with each other, they want to let loose. And I always say, "I'm going to give them that ability in the workplace to laugh. I'm going to give them that ability in the workplace to be silly, to be mischievous." They call me Chief Mischief Officer. To be all of these fundamental things. Why do you have to have that happen outside the work? Why? Look at the rules of the workplace. You never show your emotions at work. Who the f*ck made that rule? A whole bunch of men years ago, because they were taught that boys don't cry. Boys were taught... I don't even blame them. Boys are taught not to show… boys don't cry. Why the f*ck do boys not cry? So then they bring that into the workplace. Now, all of a sudden, you're not allowed to show emotion in the workplace. But then you tell me, "Bring my whole self to work." I'm like, "My whole self as a woman, and as some men by the way, is to be emotional." I'm like, "Bring it, cry." And then get out of my office and go be a player. It's good to shed. It's good to be vulnerable. It's good to have a moment. All of that's good.
Charles (26:17):
And how have the last two years evolved that thinking for you? How do you do all of that in a workplace that's become more remote, more virtual, less consistently focused around a physical space? How has that evolved for you?
Devika Bulchandani (26:31):
I think it's become sort of more heightened but… I'll give you one example during the pandemic that would drive me crazy. And then I really… Mothers, like, their little kids… you could see a mother in the early parts of the pandemic. Like, the kid would come target the shirt of a mother or the pants, and the mother was looking all awkward. And then she would be there, "Sh, sh, sh, I'm so... I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." You know, like, "John, John, be quiet." And I would stop the meeting. I didn't realize this in the beginning. And at one point I was like, "Wait a minute, that child, all they are seeing is my mother said, ‘I am sorry,’ when I came." Just think about the psychology of that. And I would stop the meeting. "John, come on into the meeting.” And I'd tell all the mothers openly and fathers, by the way, “Never apologize for your children, never. And explain to them that child... the child doesn't understand, all they heard is you saying, ‘I'm sorry,’ when they came.” What a horrible feeling. It doesn't take more than two seconds to bring John on screen and say, "John, come say hi...".
Charles (27:47):
Has that lingered for you? Has that lingered for the company? Now that—
Devika Bulchandani (27:49):
I will still do it. If I'm on a Zoom call and I see a child go by, I always say, "Who's that in the background? Come say hi." And then there was this one time I remember we had a meeting with, in my old job, and there was the then CEO and there was a woman, she was really nervous. And I even stopped the meeting and I said, "Harris, can we just stop for a second? I can see that Anne has a little kid who wants to.…" What's anybody going to do? And I also believe, by the way, I tell this to everybody, to say, 99% of people, clients, human beings, when you tell them, "I can't do this because my child's having a…." Nobody's horrible and mean. We are so scared to say things. And the biggest lesson I've learned is... I told lies, you know, when I had young kids, because I was scared.
You know, I felt I had to cover up for it. I couldn't be honest. And I had to… lies as in white lies (laughs), you know, like, "Eh, I don't know how…." I just never do that. And I now publicly say... I made a call to a really, really senior person once to say, "I cannot come to have lunch with you." And I struggled for about 30 minutes. Should I do it? Shouldn't I? Should I make up a story? Should I not? Because my 12-year-old daughter had just gotten her period for the first time and was having a real moment.
Charles (29:13):
Mm-hmm.
Devika Bulchandani (29:13):
And I really struggled. I'm just going to make... say I have a client meeting. And then I finally said to myself, what are you doing? And I called this really senior man at a holding company and I said, "I can't have lunch with you because my 12-year-old girl just got her period, and she's having a hysterical moment." He was... I mean, he was like, "Of course." But it took me, by the way, took me a lot of courage at that moment to say, "Should I, should I not?" I can just say, "Client called for an urgent thing. And then I'm like, "What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? No, you're not going to lie about this."
Charles (29:44):
Yeah. It's the embodiment of fearless leadership actually in the most, in the most human of ways. What do you think is going to be expected of leaders as you look at 2023 and beyond, in a post pandemic, more human view of the world?
Devika Bulchandani (29:56):
Charles, I think I'm slightly delusional and it's good. I always say having a little amount of delusion is very good for the soul because you look at the world through the lens of that delusion. I think we're going to be forced to do more and more of this. And I think… I think we are still having an intellectual discussion about all of this in the world. I'm not sure that all leaders have fully embodied this. I think there's an intellectual discussion, it's woke to do it. And to me, what we're going to see, and I hope what we're going to see in 2023, is that it's not woke. It's not an intellectual discussion. It is the only way the world's going to move forward. And I think it is my moral responsibility and my business responsibility that's been given to me to take the burden of that transition. And I think more and more leaders are going to realize that. It doesn’t mean we're not going to be competitive, we're not going to win, like none of that. These are not dichotomous objectives.
Charles (31:11):
And what do you think the office looks like over the next couple of years?
Devika Bulchandani (31:15):
I have no clue. Look, my personal belief is, we're not islands. We are meant to socialize as human beings. I think all the stuff I talked about in the beginning, which is my life values aligning with my work values. Work being this sort of blurring. If we can do our life's work at work, it makes life better, not just work better. If we don't show up and have relationships with people, I don't know how you do that. I think it's a real vacuum. Like, if you don't show up and have relationships... I'm not saying show up because you have to show up to work. I'm talking about showing up so that you create human relationships and networks and you know when somebody else is having a bad time.
You understand what somebody else's life is. I, sorry, can't do it over zoom. I just can't. And you... we can't. You can do a little bit because you have that. If you don't have that... What was that incredible data point? 72% of people who quit in 2021 during The Great Resignation regretted it because they thought they were going for greener pastures. It was going to be better somewhere. So they got more money and they still didn't have human relationships. They were still in Zoom. It's not better somewhere else.
Charles (32:36):
If you were going to give leaders one piece of advice about what they cannot do next year, what would that be?
Devika Bulchandani (32:43):
Don't assume everything that you think is right is actually right.
Charles (32:48):
Mm-hmm.
Devika Bulchandani (32:51):
Have the vulnerability to pivot. And I say this very consciously, because when we talk about pivoting in the workplace, it is often externalized. The market conditions forced us to pivot. And I keep saying, "Have the vulnerability to pivot," to say, "No, I didn't get this right. Let's pivot." It's very subtle, but it's very different. And the only way to move your business forward, to move the world forward, is to believe, if you have 15,000 people, 5,000 people, 3,000 people, that what is going to unlock business success, you need the foundational strategy, you need all of that, is if you can unlock how people can be 150% of themselves, that's how a business gets successful.
Not because we say come at two o'clock, leave at five o'clock. And maybe it's even more relevant in our industry, right? Because I don't have a machine, I don't have anything. We don't make anything. It's just all about human beings. So to me, like I always say, there's a... thinking about these things and figuring it out is way more of a business imperative because I don't have a factory. I don't know... We don't make cars, we don't make... We don't have a network, we don't have a piece of technology that makes us the money. We just have human beings.
Charles (34:18):
Clearly your career is a long way from being over, but as you look back at it so far, do you have any regrets?
Devika Bulchandani (34:25):
I was scared early on and I wish I was less scared in the beginning. I would be more fearful. I would think in my head, but it took a lot for me to go to my…. And also remember, I was an immigrant. I don't understand American culture, and I'm in an industry that's all about culture. So it was a lot of like trepidation of how to fit in. And then I had this epiphany to say, "Actually, what's really cool is I don't have to fit in. I have to stand out." That was my big epiphany. The other thing I'll tell you is, I don't look back. Regrets always keep you from moving forward. I just... like my husband will say this all the time, he's like, "You just don't have any patience to sit and analyze what happened." It's always like, "Okay, what do we do?"
My son lost his home... he lost his homework when he was in sixth or seventh grade because... "Ah, mom, the cleaning lady, she threw it in the garbage and then the doorman took the garbage away and the.…" And I looked at him and I said, "Okay, I get all that, what are you going to do?” And he goes, "What do you mean? It went in the garbage." And I said, "Did you go to the doorman and find out if the garbage has been taken away? Because it only goes once a week in New York. Get your hands in that damn garbage. It's a piece of paper, you'll find it." And that's a pivot... you know, like I always go... that's a moment I go, "I just don't know how to belabor the... this happened and that happened and that happened." I'm like, "Okay, it happened. Now what are we going to do?"
Charles (35:57):
That's a great story. Last question for you. What are you afraid of as you look to the future?
Devika Bulchandani (36:07):
I'm not afraid of the little things or what I would say are the immediate realities. The things that keep me up at... I mean, nothing keeps me up at night because I'm a really good sleeper. But, you know, metaphorically speaking is, are we leaving the right planet to our kids? Am I really... like, my life's work has been gender equality and yet like we're going back. Like, those things. Are we doing enough? Are we really doing enough? And I don't think doing enough means we are all going to quit our jobs and suddenly take to the streets. I think every one of us, if we use the platforms that we have. My platform is creativity. So I use it and I encourage our organization to use it.
Everybody at Ogilvy right now is working with the ERA to get the Equal Rights Amendment passed because damn, we don't have it in the U.S. That's what I'm scared of. Are we really going to be able to move some really fundamental things that impact us as humanity forward? Because we take two steps forward and we take one step back. But being the delusional optimist that I am, I'm not going to let it get me down. We're going to keep marching forward. And keep waking up in the morning and getting the job done for the day.
Charles (37:40):
You promised us at the beginning a candid, honest conversation. I think from learning how to pee standing up to loving your employees, to raising the bar for leadership, you've given us all of that and so much more. I think Ogilvy is in very, very good hands and I wish you nothing but success.
Devika Bulchandani (37:57):
And Charles, thank you so much. At a pivotal moment in my life you have been such an unlock for me. And I think if we all had people like you in our lives, and for us to remember that we can show up as unlocks in other people's lives, everything would be much better.
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