Andréa Mallard of Pinterest
How Fast Are You Going?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 384: Andréa Mallard
Here’s a question. How fast are you going?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach their leaders and their leadership teams. To help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Andréa Mallard. She’s the Chief Marketing & Communications Officer of Pinterest.
I interviewed Andréa at Cannes, in the lobby of the Majestic Hotel. Her energy struck me, the moment she arrived. Her perspectives about her life and her leadership have stayed with me, long after we said goodbye.
“You know, I would actually rather we went 100 miles an hour into a brick wall than 10 miles an hour nowhere in particular. And I think a lot of decision making and business incentivizes the safe, low-risk choice, which ultimately ends up destroying a company over time. You just don't feel it, it's just the water is getting slightly hotter every day. I think especially now, you have to have the stomach to make big bold moves. There's always going to be an invisible anchor on your business. It's whether you see it or not. And you have to be willing to start chopping at it. Even though that feels destructive in the short-term, it ultimately will set the company free, I think.”
Leadership is a forcing function for the forces of physics. Which direction are you going and how fast are you moving are determined entirely by the leader.
Those two factors are affected directly and acutely by the leaders’ willingness to challenge the status quo. To take off the handbrake that the unasked question leaves in place.
There are some leaders for whom disruption is the fuel that gets them up in the morning.
But for many, the fear of confrontation provides a natural suppression of the instinct to ask the difficult questions. That fear helps them ignore the rising temperature of the water that they and their company are sitting in.
And when the future suddenly arrives, and stares us in the face, we find that all those unasked questions, all those moments when we avoided the hard conversation, suddenly come with a heavy cost. Or worse.
Leadership asks that we overcome our fears in order to help others with theirs. It asks us to be status quo shakers and rule breakers. It asks us to search for the invisible anchors on our businesses and release them so we can meet the future - on our terms.
I heard - or perhaps dreamt - a quote the other day. In any case, I can’t find it on Google so maybe this is an original thought. Either way, it strikes me as true.
You may not be interested in the future. But the future is interested in you.
Ask the questions you didn’t ask yesterday. Feel the temperature of the water around you. Meet the future on your terms. As fast as you can.
Here’s Andréa Mallard.
Charles (03:13):
Andréa, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Andréa Mallard (03:15):
Thank you for including me.
Charles (03:16):
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity being a thing?
Andréa Mallard (03:21):
Ooh, what a great question. You know, very young, very, very young. I remember probably in about first grade, I used to... I grew up in Canada and I used to get dragged a lot to my brother's hockey games when he had practices, and it's very cold in a hockey arena, you're there very early in the morning. It's very dull. And this was of an era of '70s and '80s parents who certainly had no inclination that they should try to entertain their children in any way when they went to something like this.
And the joke my parents used to tell me was I would play with my hands. I would have conversations. I would have my hands as little puppets and they would have a complete conversation with each other. They would have a game. And I remember the game. I remember what I would play. It was a whole story I was telling myself with these two fabled animals that were my hands, and I would entertain myself. I'd sit there for 90 minutes, you know, looking like a crazy little child, talking to herself with her hands.
And that was probably the first indication, around five or six years old, that I was maybe leaning more creative and could invent worlds, could entertain myself or could take a dull situation and make it interesting for myself. And then, it really progressed from there. I even have a memory... I still remember the stories I would play as a child where I invented truly entirely fictitious worlds. I remember I had this years-long game where I lived in what I called The Green Forest, and the bad part of it was called Dead Bark, and you didn't want to go too deep into Dead Bark because bad things happen there. But I would invent pretty elaborate rituals around these stories.
And so, it's always been there, but it started from a place I would say of just necessity, right? Boredom and necessity, but it's now been a little bit of the talk track of my life ever since.
Charles (05:02):
How did that evolve as you grow up? How did you express yourself through your teen years—
Andréa Mallard (05:05):
You know—
Charles (05:06):
—and to education?
Andréa Mallard (05:07):
You know, it's interesting. I think for better for worse, you know, my mother was very, very intelligent, as is my father, but my mother was sort of exceptionally intelligent. And, there was such a premium placed on intelligence in my household, you know, and understanding the world and world history and being able to have cogent conversations about what was going on. My brother's very bright, my sister very, very bright, and they were older.
I was a little bit different, I would say. I came at… my intelligence shown through a little bit more the creative side. And so, I don't think it manifested to my parents or my siblings as true intelligence until much, much later in life. It seemed like I was the quirky, the quirky weird kid. I wrote a lot of funny poems. I wrote funny limericks in second grade. I could draw, I did theater. I did painting. I did sculpture.
I just did a lot of creative things, but I remember distinctly as I was young thinking that my parents didn't think I was that bright, and having a little bit of a funny feeling about that. That I, what I did wasn't valued in quite the same way. Looking back with, you know, with the benefit of time, I see that it was now. It was very much valued. But it just wasn't as understood as the other obvious signs of sort of late intelligence.
So, as I got older, I just was very much... I think the things that define me was very much a self-starter. This was, again, the philosophy of parenting was benign neglect in that era so we were all left to our own devices. But I managed to really fill the space of that emptiness for myself. So whether it was theater or drama or writing, I started writing very long form stories very, very young. My father funnily enough has just turned 80. He just wrote a memoir of his life and he had an entire chapter about me that really shows me that he picked up on all of that. Andréa and her typewriter or Andréa with her drawings or Andréa as the editor-in-chief of this magazine when she was in high school.
So it really manifested through a lot of, let's say the traditional liberal arts side of it, for a very, very long time, until I realized when I was a little bit in my early 20s that creativity and strategy are not opposites in any way. And that I was actually pretty good at the strategy too. And then, my career took off from there. But it was a really interesting circuitous route to get to that place.
Charles (07:22):
How did that benign neglect affect you emotionally? Were you okay with that? Did you feel unappreciated? What was the impact on you?
Andréa Mallard (07:30):
You know, it's such a great question. I didn't know any different. I didn't know there was an alternate way of being. So the good news is I didn't experience it as a loss. I think I only notice it as different as I got older and started to notice the dynamic between my friends' parents and them or as an adult.
So I actually think it was a real gift, to be honest. It was a implicit message that I was capable and I could figure it out on my own. And that in fact, I had to do it on my own. So, one example, neither my parents went to university so they gave me not just no advice about how to go to university, but bad advice about how to... Literally awful advice. And, I had to completely figure out how to get there on my own. But as a result I felt no pressure. I was completely intrinsically motivated. It didn't dawn on me to ask my parents for help for anything, didn't cross my mind once.
I remember when I was about 19 or 20, I was growing up in Canada, I was at university, there was an awful ice storm. And if you don't know what an ice storm is, imagine the most beautiful catastrophe you can imagine, but everything is coated in a thick several centimeters of ice, or several inches of ice.
Charles (08:44):
Yeah. It's stunning and deadly.
Andréa Mallard (08:46):
It's stunning and deadly. Roofs are collapsing—
Charles (08:48):
Yeah.
Andréa Mallard (08:48):
—cars are collapsing.
Charles (08:49):
Trees are falling down.
Andréa Mallard (08:50):
Trees are falling.
Charles (08:50):
Power lines are going down
Andréa Mallard (08:52):
I was living in a student house at the time, there was a whole the roof fell down that, you know, catastrophe, most kids ran home to get the last train they could before there was no power for a week, no heat, it's Canadian winter. It didn't cross my mind to call my mother and tell her I was safe, you know, and people had died in this storm. I just stayed at school in blankets.
And when the power lines were restored, she finally got a hold of me. And she was so furious at me, "How could you..." And it was the first time I thought, "Oh, oh, you were worried." (laughs) And she loved me very deeply, don't get me wrong, but I think I just had so believed that I was meant to do this on my own, it didn't cross my mind.
Charles (09:34):
So I'm struck by the fact that so many people, probably me included, would have had a different reaction to that lack of connection, but I'm fascinated by the fact that it created a self-confidence and an independence to you.
Andréa Mallard (09:45):
It did. And, you know, to be honest, and I felt very connected to my parents. I felt very loved by... I was very loved by them. It wasn't that, it was more you're supposed to do it on your own. I actually almost see it now as a vote of confidence, which is we assume you can do this and you don't need our intervention in any way. And, in retrospect, I think there were moments they, they could have helped me out.
I remember even I was accepted into the London School of Economics to do a master's degree and I remember my father actively trying to convince me not, you know, saying, "What a waste of time and money. Why would you do that?" And I actually just saw him this weekend. He lives in Hamburg, Germany and we laugh about it now. I said, "If I hadn't gotten that degree, I wouldn't have gotten a visa to go work in the US. And if I hadn't gone, I wouldn't gotten that job. It really was a really pivotal moment for me, and you try to talk me out of it."
And he kind of laughed and said, "Yeah. I didn't know what I was talking about as it turns out." (laughing) And there's something very freeing about your parents admitting to you that they didn't know what they were talking about and I can make peace with that. Yeah. You didn't. What do you know.
Charles (10:44):
What drew you to economics? Because based on the childhood you've described—
Andréa Mallard (10:47):
You know what? At the London School of Economics, I took a degree in global media. So yes, there was an economic component to it. It was how do you run a global media company, but I was interested more in the side of it which is how do you build a business, how do you tell great stories for the world, how do you run a 21st Century media company? Which was more the focus, and how does media, at the time, this is a long time ago, affect how we experience the world?
So I saw it more, I entered it laterally from that point of view versus a purely economic standpoint. It's the name of the school, but it certainly wasn't the focus of the degree.
Charles (11:18):
With all of that as a background, how did you define success early on in your life?
Andréa Mallard (11:25):
I wanted to live a adventurous big life and that was the definition very, very early for me.
Charles (11:32):
And you were clear about that?
Andréa Mallard (11:33):
Very clear.
Charles (11:34):
I mean, did you use those words?
Andréa Mallard (11:35):
I used the words, live a big life. Live a big life. And there was no monetary value to that for me at the beginning, whatsoever. In fact, probably the opposite was true. I had a very romantic notion that I should be traveling. I should be sleeping in, you know, (laughs) with just my backpack. I should be seeing the world and meeting people just with my own two feet. But I just always had this feeling that I, you get one chance, you get one chance and you should suck the marrow of everything you can do.
I think what was helpful is I grew up in Canada, but I had a sort of German-Danish father, and then I had a French-Canadian mother. So I grew up in a world where my parents were foreign-ish, and they had an understanding of the world beyond what the parents of my peers did. And so, we were fortunate enough we got to go twice to Europe when I was growing up, which was a very big deal back then. We didn't do it in any kind of luxury, we drove, you know, in a small rented car, but that let me know, "Oh, the world's a big place."
And, where you are is who you are is what I learned very, very young. That the people who were in Italy or in Spain or in the UK were very different fundamentally in certain ways than I was, because of where they were and that that could shape who you became. And so, when I graduated from university, before I'd even... I didn't even stick around for my graduation. I wrote my last exam of undergrad and the next day, I was on... I had won a scholarship, an exit scholarship for high marks and I had just enough money to buy myself a flight to Paris, where I started inauspiciously bartending was my first career.
Charles (13:11):
(laughs)
Andréa Mallard (13:12):
And I thought I was going to do that for six months. And then, go back to Canada and I've never been back since then. So I've spent the last 20 plus, 25 years, on that six month tour as a bartender in Paris, it never stopped. And I just ended up jumping from country to country.
Charles (13:28):
And how often do you remind yourself to live a big life? How present is that for you?
Andréa Mallard (13:33):
Without giving it away, because I don't want all my passwords to be cracked. (laughs) It is one of the main passwords I use for every email login I have and it has been that way since I was 19.
Charles (13:44):
Please go home and change your password. (laughs)
Andréa Mallard (13:44):
Yeah. I should change right now. You can't guess how I articulate it so, no, I remind myself of it all the time. And in fact, when I have to make scary decisions that don't feel right, I ask myself which way, which way is the bigger adventure? So a real example of this, when I was in my mid-30s, I was working for IDEO, which is a large global innovation and design consultancy and I'd been working in New York and Boston and done really well and I loved it.
And they had asked me if I would move to Europe to lead brand strategy, you know, as a, as a discipline for them, in that market. And they assumed I would move to London. I'd lived there already for five years, and obviously it would be straightforward. But they also had an office in Munich and I thought, "Well, that's interesting. Munich is a city I've never been to, Germany is a country I've never lived in. I don't know anything about it. I don't speak German. That would be the riskier, scarier move and it makes the least amount of sense. Let's do that one."
And so, I moved there for six years and learned German and learned the culture and became part of it and I've never, I've never been let down by that philosophy. Because it was just the bigger adventure. It was the better story and I got so much more out of it. London would have been obvious and safe. Germany made no sense and was scary and it was the best decision I've ever made. And so, that has guided a lot of my thinking. I have a real impulse towards risk, or towards adventure rather, and that's always served me well.
Charles (15:11):
How do you apply that to your leadership?
Andréa Mallard (15:15):
You know, I'm very comfortable with creative risk. I certainly am sober about corporate risk. So, I always try to make a distinction between those two things. Where am I pushing us to make a bold creative risk that's appropriate for the challenge, versus when am I actually making a corporate risk that it feels inappropriate given we're a large company and I want to make sure we're making good choices that are sound and thoughtful? But I think my leadership style is very much pointing towards take a big swing.
I would actually rather we went 100 miles an hour into a brick wall than 10 miles an hour nowhere in particular. And I think a lot of decision making and business incentivizes the safe low risk choice, which ultimately ends up destroying a company over time. You just don't feel it, it's just the water is getting slightly hotter every day. I think especially now, you have to have the stomach to make big bold moves.
There's always going to be an invisible anchor on your business, it's whether you see it or not. And you have to be willing to start chopping at it even though that feels disruptive in the short term; it ultimately will set the company free, I think.
Charles (16:24):
Are there ever a time where you feel like the risk is just too big or I've pushed this too far?
Andréa Mallard (16:28):
I think, you know, I think the thing where I feel it the most is, you know, especially in the US culture can shift in very interesting ways and we have a very, I'm sure as you everyone listening knows, a very polarized country in many ways. And, and sometimes decisions can be weaponized, or creative can be weaponized or a thought can be weaponized in a way it shouldn't be, by both sides, frankly, of any conversation. And so, where I think I'm the most thoughtful is when I feel like there's something in the air culturally right now that I don't want to enter that moment, because I think it will be misappropriated—
Charles (17:07):
Mm-hmm.
Andréa Mallard (17:07):
—and it will be misused, in a purposeful way that doesn't feel like it honors the intent of what we're trying to do. So we're going to wait for a minute and we're going to find another moment to do that differently. But that's a that's a judgment call. That's just pattern recognition and sometimes I get that right, sometimes I get that wrong. But I do, I do worry a little bit about the nature of the conversations happening in the US right now that just feel really unfortunate and I hope... I have always optimism, but I hope we can move through this and get to a place where we can have more rational fact-based conversations about the challenges we're facing, how we move through them as a single society.
Charles (17:45):
Somebody who has the background that you've just described who, who comes with the independence, the confidence, the self-confidence, the self-awareness that you describe, the tolerance for risk that you describe, is in many ways the sort of the prototypical framework you'd look for in the leader of a really creative business, but not everybody brings those qualities to the table.
Andréa Mallard (18:03):
Right.
Charles (18:04):
How do you create an environment in which you are as brave as you are, but that is sensitive enough for people who don't naturally bring that kind of confidence or self-esteem to the table?
Andréa Mallard (18:15):
You know, well, it's just what you call, it's confidence and self-esteem, because I don't know if I experienced it quite that way. I would say what I try to bring to the table is, is almost radical honesty in all things. And so, I'm very open with my team about moments I think I've gotten things wrong or where I'm not sure about things. I also am very open to the team that this is really hard, you know, the work we do is hard. There isn't it, there isn't a right answer. Sometimes there's a less wrong answer and that has to be good enough too.
You know, I write an email to my entire team every Monday morning, it goes out at 5:00 AM every Monday morning, and it has three sections in it. The top is how I've used our product in the last week in some interesting way or how it's helped me. I always want to ground us on what the product is and a lot of that allows me to tell stories about my life. I think it's really important people see leaders as in three dimensions and that includes stories of my father or my children or me or things that have happened that have been good or bad.
I talk about what's top of mind for me that week. And then, I talk about something that inspires me out in the world. But I try to do that in a very conversational eye level way with everyone to demystify that I'm just like them, but maybe 10 years older or 10 years further down the line. I also have a lot of people say to me, "How do I become a CMO? How do I become a CMO? How to become like you?" And the first question I always ask is, why do you want this? Because you lose things as you go up the ladder as much as you gain them, and I don't think I had the consciousness to recognize that I was forfeiting certain things that I really loved as I ascended.
I think if I was more deliberate about how I designed my career, I might have actually stopped a few rungs down and said, "Actually, this is the place where I'm at my most happy, where I'm most in the work, I have enough responsibility. I'm happy enough with how I'm being compensated. I have the right work-life balance." I don't think I was designing my life that way. I don't think anyone really had consciousness about that.
And so, I try to demystify for the up and comers that like, "Actually, I am not a success because I have a C-level title at all. I'm a success for these other reasons. This is incidental. I want you to design your entire life not just design your career and use that as a barometer for your own success." So I think that helps, because I don't, I certainly don't put myself on any kind of pedestal (laughs) and I don't want them to think that this is a goal in and of itself it is not. It is a choice I made and it comes with pros and it comes with cons and they need to make their own set of choices.
Charles (20:42):
What have you lost?
Andréa Mallard (20:44):
Well, I've, you know, I'm the breadwinner for my family and I've lost time with my children, and it's… that's a difficult thing. That's a really difficult thing. Because you don't ever get that back and I recognize that I had to... I was willing to part with that in order to afford other things for our family. And, I wrestle with that all the time.
We're together at Cannes right now, and this year, I brought my 16-year-old daughter with me and I paid for her flight, and in exchange for her flight, she's working at the Pinterest Beach. She's checking people in. She's clearing glasses. She's sweeping. I want her to work. She needs to work. No one gets a flight like this for free, but it's just an excuse for me to be near her and be around her. And for her to see what a creative career could be for herself as well, but it only dawned on me that I had some agency in the last few years where I could make choices like that to involve my children in my work so it didn't feel like such a stark contrast.
The other thing I think I've given up certainly is you give up a little bit of peace of mind sometimes. And that's a real thing. You know, it's a real thing to give up peace of mind. It's a holy thing to have it and when you don't, it's awful. And I remember years ago, I was making quite a big bet with, with Pinterest money and I remember lying in bed at night feeling like there was a weight on my chest of the responsibility, of I was making a decision that was $50 million that was coming down to my judgment on something.
And I remember saying to my husband who's a wonderful man saying, "This is an enormous burden, feeling this weight on my chest. I can't sleep because of this weight." And ultimately it was the, the right decision, but you pay a price in those moments too, you pay a price when you're staring at the ceiling at night and the rest of the house is sleeping and you're, you're worrying and that costs something to you. And so, I'm very conscious of what I'm spending in order to get what I'm earning. And I try to pay real attention to that, and be more thoughtful.
Charles (22:47):
Is the trade-off worth it for you?
Andréa Mallard (22:51):
The trade-off is worth it. The trade-off is worth it, but not always on a Wednesday. Over time the trade-off is worth it. And so, I have to remind myself in a moment when I feel a sadness of the bigger picture. And then, just be more conscious in the day-to-day decisions so that when I'm with my children, for example, I'm very present, and I'm very grateful. So there's no part of me that feels that if I were given a terminal diagnosis today, I know for sure I would have no regrets. I would not think, "Well, I never rode a motorcycle through Paris or I never did this or anything."
I did those things. I lived fully. I loved my children. I spent real time with them. I don't have regrets in that regard. But I do have moments of sadness where I recognize... I have a funny... It's such a silly story, but, years ago, my middle child, my daughter, she's at a public middle school and all public schools in the US are woefully underfunded, and so they tend to have fundraisers. They tend to do raffle tickets and things like that.
And so, she sold a bunch of raffle tickets. And she won, her ticket happened to get pulled. And, and the prize that year unbelievably was an all-inclusive fully paid trip to a hotel in Fiji, if you can imagine that. Some parent at the school worked for this hotel and that was the prize. And when she won, she called my husband to tell him she had won. Because that's an unbelievable thing she wanted for a family (laughs) and it didn't cross her mind to call me, because she figured I'd be too busy at work to take the call.
Charles (24:22):
Wow.
Andréa Mallard (24:23):
Now there's a parallel back to when it didn't cross my mind to call my mother to tell her I was safe from the ice storm. You know, it's a different situation but I… it was a deep sadness to me that this enormous joy she hadn't thought to call me about it. And not because she didn't think I'd be ecstatic and I'd celebrate her, but she figured I'll wait ‘til you get home because you'll be too busy otherwise. It's such a silly thing—
Charles (24:43):
No. It's—
Andréa Mallard (24:43):
—it's such a funny story, but that one sticks with me for some reason. "Oh, man, she didn't think to call me because she knew I might be too busy for it." So that's a little sacrifice. Silly, but it sticks.
Charles (24:53):
Yeah. I don't think silly at all.
Andréa Mallard (24:54):
Yeah.
Charles (24:55):
I mean, I think I was talking to a group this morning about how do you define success from a life standpoint when you get to the end of it?
Andréa Mallard (25:00):
Yes.
Charles (25:01):
I mean I know this resonates for you, but we don't remember the things that we thought were really important at the time—
Andréa Mallard (25:07):
That's right.
Charles (25:07):
—the titles we achieved or the awards we won, we remember the relationships we had and the impact we had and—
Andréa Mallard (25:11):
That's right.
Charles (25:11):
—whether we found out a lot about ourselves. And it feels like you're really living that life.
Andréa Mallard (25:15):
Yes.
Charles (25:15):
It feels like you're very consciously making choices that you will—
Andréa Mallard (25:18):
Very much.
Charles (25:19):
—value when you get towards the end—
Andréa Mallard (25:21):
Very much.
Charles (25:21):
—whenever the end is.
Andréa Mallard (25:22):
I saw this quote just weeks ago that I keep thinking about which is the only person, the only people who remember you stayed late at work are your children, you know, and that's a really true statement.
Charles (25:33):
Yeah.
Andréa Mallard (25:33):
You know, and so, I do really try to live very consciously in the choices I make in the day-to-day. And I certainly think I'm getting better at that now over time. But that is truly the advice I give to younger people, which is design your life, design your life every day and make choices every day, because we are only the sum of what we do in the end.
Charles (25:53):
This kind of vulnerability and self-awareness, are typically more emotionally available to women.
Andréa Mallard (26:00):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (26:01):
I was running this session this morning with Simon Cook, and we were talking very openly about the personal vulnerability and fear that we've experienced in our lives—
Andréa Mallard (26:09):
Sure.
Charles (26:10):
—and we consciously made the choice to talk about that publicly—
Andréa Mallard (26:13):
Yes.
Charles (26:13):
—because forever, all industries, this one included, have been designed by men, mostly white men—
Andréa Mallard (26:21):
Yeah.
Charles (26:21):
—to work for men, mostly white men, and that industry is driven by a very hierarchical top-down—
Andréa Mallard (26:29):
Yeah.
Charles (26:30):
—masculine definition and approach to leadership.
Andréa Mallard (26:32):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (26:33):
And I think in a post-pandemic world, especially, the acceleration towards desiring leadership that is much more open, much more vulnerable, much more honest—
Andréa Mallard (26:43):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (26:43):
—much more authentic, I find everywhere that I work these days.
Andréa Mallard (26:45):
Yes.
Charles (26:46):
I find people craving it, crying out for it. In some cases, demanding it.
Andréa Mallard (26:49):
I agree.
Charles (26:50):
I find many leaders having a very hard time with that, because they have just spent all of their lives leading—
Andréa Mallard (26:54):
That's right.
Charles (26:55):
—in an entirely different way. Based on everything you've described, you are, from my perspective, very much an archetype of that kind of evolved leader.
Andréa Mallard (27:02):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (27:03):
Somebody who's fully self-aware, willing to share their vulnerabilities, recognizing risk, recognizing trade-offs, having those conversations openly. How do you think we create an industry, a society in which that kind of leadership is not just accepted, but actually required?
Andréa Mallard (27:22):
You know, I think this is going to sound like a funny statement. I think success solves a lot of problems. And what I mean by that is when you can tether that kind of leadership with business success, I think historically, and I think men need a lot of support here. You know, the one thing I've observed in the last few years is obviously, and rightfully so there's been a certain degree of a cultural reckoning with a hierarchy that is not, that has served one population more than many of the other intersectional ones.
At the same time, I recognize that men have been historically punished for having any vulnerability whatsoever. And that if you really look at the burden of what men have faced, you know, wars are fought by men, and that includes 18-year-old boys, you know, historically over the last hundred years. And I really think about that now that I have an 18-year-old boy, in particular, you go wow. it's a really heavy burden to, as a man, or as a woman, but as a man to be told, you should have no feelings about this whatsoever. In fact, you are valued for your strength and your strength alone and your strength is seen as one dimension of strength.
And so, I think what is really helpful for women and for men, for anyone, is to see a different style of leadership be successful in the business world first. I actually think I'm very pragmatic about it, which is I want business results as much as anyone and I recognize my job is to do a great job, for the business and for our users. And so, I don't think I'm any less hard driving than any typical man is.
I think I approach it in a different way. But I'm no less oriented towards results. And so, I wonder if the way for us to make the shift is actually through emblems of success. To say this amazing leader achieved this in the real world, but look at their approach. It was similarly effective. And by the way, they are healthier though. They're emotionally more healthy. And so, is their team and they're able to extract the ideas and thoughts from more people because they're less afraid to speak up and therefore they're more diverse and therefore the output is stronger.
I just think we haven't made that connection. What we've seen is one model, which is a little bit of the, I don't even want to say the bully leader, but this sort of, the strong archetypal leader who directs and shouts and is more let's say masculine. But there's more, more examples of the opposite, I think now. Also, I think we have to support men, and I hope that's not an unpopular thing to say, but no one benefits when anyone is relegated to a certain type of role and I think men have been relegated to a certain type of role for a very long time.
Charles (30:05):
I think that's entirely true. I think the fundamental issue is that we've become oppositional—
Andréa Mallard (30:10):
Yeah.
Charles (30:11):
—in this evolution and that we are cast as man or woman—
Andréa Mallard (30:14):
That's right.
Charles (30:15):
—and therefore we are the opposite of the other.
Andréa Mallard (30:17):
That's right.
Charles (30:18):
I was at an event in Cannes five years ago talking to a group of women. And one of the women running the group started the session by saying, rich white men are the enemy. Now I don't have a plane, but I'm doing fine, and I'm certainly white (laughs) and I'm certainly a man. And I thought, "Not sure that's the most helpful context." I mean I understood the anger from which it came.
Andréa Mallard (30:39):
Sure.
Charles (30:40):
And factually, there were parts of it that weren't wrong, but it also didn't create much of an environment in which to actually have this kind of conversation. So I'm glad that the world has moved on, so that you and I can sit down and have this conversation. And I made the point this morning that, in a world that is still dominated by white men for white men, we're still in that environment—
Andréa Mallard (31:00):
Sure.
Charles (31:01):
—even where we see signs of change, you can't change the direction of that society or that industry without the help of the people who have their hands on the control wheels.
Andréa Mallard (31:12):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (31:13):
I likened it to trying to redirect an oil tanker without being, without getting the help of the people—
Andréa Mallard (31:19):
Right.
Charles (31:19):
—who actually control the steering, and the engine.
Andréa Mallard (31:21):
Right.
Charles (31:21):
Right? And we... I mean, white men have to be involved in creating a different more inclusive society.
Andréa Mallard (31:26):
Sure.
Charles (31:27):
And so, I think to your point, we have to find a way to be able to have these kinds of conversations, give men the confidence to be vulnerable, to find a willingness to talk about the other side of their selves and their experiences.
Andréa Mallard (31:38):
Yes.
Charles (31:39):
Not in order to take advantage of the situation but in order to create a different environment where we can all contribute to creating a world that we want to live in.
Andréa Mallard (31:46):
I think that's right. I think... Look, the other way... I had someone once tell me, we're all bathed in the same bath water right now so, again, we might recognize men as having benefited from this. The other way to look at that is we're all victims of this and men have been burdened in their own way, now it shows up differently, but if you look at just the sheer numbers, you know, men are far more likely to commit suicides, to have a mental illness, to have bigger emotional, traumas and issues that remain unresolved for years.
And so, absolutely, they have more political power, they have more financial power, no one's disputing that. There's still a lot of pain in that and, and I wonder how... I tend to agree, if we all are to move forward, we have to actually move forward together. And I worry about a purely oppositional attack. I understand the anger completely. I felt the anger myself. I feel the anger on behalf of others who are even more marginalized, I feel that. And I want to move through it. And I think the best way to do that is together.
And so, I try to recognize, you know, we... It's interesting. I had a wonderful interaction at work just a few months ago where, I actually think men are so eager to support women, especially the one or two women who happen to who have managed to get up into the C-suite that an unfortunate byproduct of that is they're less likely to want to give any feedback or to say anything negative towards that leader. And so, that's a sort of double irony of where we are, which is, "Well, if you're not getting the right feedback, you're actually not going to succeed."
And there's a wonderful senior leader, a male leader with whom I work often who, he and I had a bit of a tense interaction. in a meeting and which was not usual for either of us, neither of us are confrontational by nature. But after we sat down to resolve it. And he actually gave me some really fair constructive feedback.
And I said to him, "I want to thank you for giving me that feedback, because I could imagine it feels very difficult for you to give me that feedback because you want to support me and this feels antithetical to that, to you, but I still value that. And now I feel that we're equals, because you've given me the same quality feedback you would routinely give to a man in this situation. And I know it comes from a good place and I want to unburden you of any fear, I appreciate this. I value it. I will take it on."
And that's just a way of me acknowledging I have a role to play here. I understand that he should have given me that feedback anyway, but he didn't and I understand why he hasn't. And now that he has, I want him to feel appreciated for doing that. So we'll do it again. And I'm happy to do that myself so that it's easier for the next person to do it. I think we all have a role to play and we have to recognize that.
Charles (34:25):
How actively would you take that recognition forward and make public to everyone around you that you're open to that kind of feedback? Would that be a step you would take?
Andréa Mallard (34:35):
What a great question. Tell me more about what you mean by that?
Charles (34:41):
Well, I read about a couple years ago, I think if somebody who had written a leadership contract for themselves, they had gotten to a point where they understood themselves well enough that they said, "You know what? This is who I am. This is how I lead most effectively. This is how, I'm best able to help you. This is how you get the best out of working for me."
Andréa Mallard (34:59):
Yes.
Charles (34:59):
And they literally wrote it, (laughs) printed it out, and stuck it - back in the day when we all had offices - on their office door. (laughs) So anybody walking to see them, it was a man, would stop and (laughs) read this contract and go, "Okay." So it created this set of parameters. I think if I was working with him I would have encouraged him to constantly be evolving it and challenging it—
Andréa Mallard (35:20):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (35:20):
—and maybe there's a different way to distribute it—
Andréa Mallard (35:21):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (35:21):
—than putting it as a piece of paper on a door that you kind of had to check the box to get past. But I think the intention was really interesting. And I think the kind of realization that you've just had, that empowering him to give you that feedback, is incredibly valuable. It's also incredibly human. It works on multiple levels for you and for him and for the organization, is a realization and a construct that actually might be very helpful for everybody around you to know.
Andréa Mallard (35:48):
That's such a great insight. And I hadn't thought about it that way, you know? I was doing it in a one-on-one moment, but you're right. There is, how could I actually make those around me feel more comfortable and say, "I'm actively looking for it. I know I'm not, obviously, (laughs) I know I'm not perfect, I know I have to grow, and I really value moments where you see I could have done better, and I want you to give that to me. And I don't want you to... And may just, you know, calling the elephant in the room and I acknowledge that you might hesitate to give it to me, in particular, for these reasons and I wanna disabuse you of any of that fear whatsoever. I can, I will be a willing ear to that."
So I think that's a good point. I've never... I don't know that I've scrutinized even my own leadership style enough to think that I could codify and say, and therefore, I want to precede you with this information so, you know, how to best get the most out of me as well.
Charles (36:39):
So, I don't offer it as a panacea thought but—
Andréa Mallard (36:42):
Of course.
Charles (36:42):
—but I think as part of the evolution towards a more self-conscious, self-aware collaborative—
Andréa Mallard (36:49):
Yes.
Charles (36:49):
—vulnerable leadership.
Andréa Mallard (36:50):
Yes.
Charles (36:50):
These kinds of conversations and this kind of debate and this kind of practice, essentially. I mean, if you tried it, I'd be fascinated to hear what kind of response you got.
Andréa Mallard (36:59):
Yes.
Charles (37:00):
And how you continue to evolve it to realize, "Okay. I don't mean everything. I mean—" (laughs)
Andréa Mallard (37:05):
(laughs) Right. Right. Well, yeah, of course. And, you know, it's... The other thing that's interesting that I never had when I was younger is, you know, it's funny, whenever I've met anyone, whether they're on my team or somewhere else that, that are very critical of their leader, the thing I often notice is they themselves don't yet lead a team. And I always like to revisit those people in the future once they start leading a team, they actually gain a lot more empathy.
Charles (37:30):
Yes.
Andréa Mallard (37:30):
It's like when you grow up, you go, "Oh, my parents..." You know, when your own, your own child, you're filled with empathy for your parents, you know, and you're filled with forgiveness and, and often. And I do think there's something around, sort of the up and down— empathy building, which is typically no one has empathy for their bosses or their bosses' bosses or the bosses' bosses, right? Because power only travels one way. But when you were in that position, you suddenly realized, "These are nuance, this is challenging, this is not easy to do."
And you become, I think a little less, you have less constructive feedback to offer maybe because you recognize how difficult actually this is. And so, I think it would not only be interesting for me to do that for myself, but also to challenge or to encourage everyone, even if you're the 22-year-old intern to think, "Here's as much as I know about myself right now and, and here's where I'm going to need some help and here's where I'm going to need some more guidance or here's where I just don't want guidance from you." You know, at least have self-awareness.
Charles (38:25):
No. And the curiosity for it.
Andréa Mallard (38:26):
Yes.
Charles (38:27):
And I mean, the confidence is too simplistic, because it's, that's a hard thing to get.
Andréa Mallard (38:32):
Yes.
Charles (38:32):
But I think the curiosity is the place where confidence comes from.
Andréa Mallard (38:35):
That's right.
Charles (38:36):
And it's interesting you bring up that example, because I used to own a film editing company and we evolved it over time to become four offices, Chicago, LA—
Andréa Mallard (38:44):
Wow.
Charles (38:44):
—New York and London, and we really wanted... It was essential for all kinds of reasons - strategic as well as sort of human dynamic - that we create an environment in which there was real fluidity among the offices—
Andréa Mallard (38:55):
Right.
Charles (38:55):
—and we got to that point, but one of the steps that made that possible was very early on in having four offices, I found there were women who ran each of the offices, coincidentally. And for a while they would call me or come into my office and complain about one of the women running one of the other offices.
Andréa Mallard (39:14):
Right.
Charles (39:15):
So sometimes all of the women running all the other offices.
Andréa Mallard (39:18):
Right. Right.
Charles (39:18):
And after about a month of this, I thought, "This is not going very well."
Andréa Mallard (39:22):
Right. (laughs)
Charles (39:22):
So I job swapped them for two weeks.
Andréa Mallard (39:25):
Wow.
Charles (39:26):
And I'd moved all four of them and they all went and ran each other's offices for two weeks.
Andréa Mallard (39:31):
Wow.
Charles (39:32):
And they came back. They never complained again.
Andréa Mallard (39:34):
(laughs) Isn't that, isn't that—
Charles (39:35):
Not once. Not once. In fact, because they had fully understood that their job wasn't harder or easier, it's just different—
Andréa Mallard (39:41):
That's right.
Charles (39:41):
—and there were different dynamics and complexities about it and they started to appreciate, "Oh, they do it this way. We do it this way. I can help that. They can help me." And I was fortunate that the four women were incredibly intelligent but also had incredible EQ so they were able to figure all of this out—
Andréa Mallard (39:55):
Yes.
Charles (39:55):
—without a lot of coaching or guidance.
Andréa Mallard (39:57):
Yes.
Charles (39:58):
But it was one of the most liberating and powerful constructs that we put in place for that business, because it just created a completely different dynamic between the four operational centers.
Andréa Mallard (40:08):
That's... Well, you know, it's interesting. Gosh. That's, that is such a wonderful move. It also reminds me, again, as you think about getting up in your career, I think probably one of the best things I ever did was gain real understanding empathy for the other functional areas, right? So ,really what is the CFO burdened with? And how does she or he work through that function or the chief product officer or the chief operations officer say nothing to the CEO?
And the more I've been able to establish those ties with those functions, actually, the easier everything goes. Because I know actually how to speak their language. You know, for, for a brief while I actually reported to the CFO, which is a very... I'm a CMO. So that's a very unusual, in fact, I don't know of any other company who has that structure. We don't anymore. I report to the CEO. But, for a period I was reporting to the CFO. And I remember everyone saying to me like, "Oh, yikes, that's not gonna work. That's a bad... That's..." Not, not because of the individual, but just functionally those two areas shouldn't report to each other.
I actually really embraced that challenge, because I thought, "Well, no, we actually need to. He needs to really understand how I work and how we deliver value to the business and I want to make sure I'm speaking the language of finance, ultimately, we're here for business impact." We had a really fruitful partnership. We, in fact, had all the major gains in investment we, we got were during that stage of my pairing. Because I had empathy for what he had to think about. And I made sure we were a growth driver, that we weren't a cost center. And I could prove it. And we didn't grade our own homework. And we did all the right things.
And I actually really enjoyed that empathy building exercise. So that there was never a moment where people said like, "Ugh, Finance says no." No. No. Absolutely not. I say no because I'm going to preempt it, because I can already know... I agree with Finance on this one. You know, and it was really nice. And the reverse was true. They would start to say to me, "Can you spend more money? Can you please drive more monthly active users, for example?" But I really preferred that dynamic of saying we have deep empathy for each other.
I know what he's thinking. He knows what I'm thinking. And we make joint decisions. It's not a versus anymore. And I think if you can create that dynamic the way you've done it so beautifully, that might solve a lot of the conflicts we feel in business today, you know?
Charles (42:15):
It's interesting you raised that point, actually, because there was a session yesterday, I think Jim Stengel tweeted about it, Raja Rajamannar did a session with his CFO, in which they talked about the partnership between the CMO and CFO and how critical it was so—
Andréa Mallard (42:30):
Amazing. Amazing.
Charles (42:31):
Yeah. I mean I think to your point the marriage between the two sides of the business has to become stronger—
Andréa Mallard (42:37):
I agree.
Charles (42:38):
—all the time. And I think to the kind of the general theme of this conversation, our willingness to be vulnerable and be curious about what's going on, on the other side.
Andréa Mallard (42:46):
That's right.
Charles (42:47):
When you were dealing with a situation which was purely hierarchical, made no sense intellectually. I'm sure made no sense emotionally.
Andréa Mallard (42:54):
Right.
Charles (42:55):
Made no sense strategically. When you can actually become true sort of peer-to-peer, we're trying to solve problems together from a different vantage point, the company needs both of us to be successful.
Andréa Mallard (43:04):
That's right.
Charles (43:05):
That changes everything.
Andréa Mallard (43:07):
That's right. I think that's right. I mean it also allows, and again, we often talk about making sure the CMO, in particular, has the seat at the table of the executive team. But when you understand those dynamics, I'm able to say moments where I'll say, "You know, I actually think I should shift some of my paid marketing budget, the paid media side to the engineering team, because we're better off to spend that hiring more engineers to solve this problem than to do more paid acquisition, for example."
And so, an ability to have that level of conversation, I think fundamentally changes the dynamic. I've done a few podcasts in Cannes, and every question with the exception of you, you haven't asked me this question, but everyone else has asked, "Ooh, the economy, you know, the macroeconomic conditions, you know, so I'm sure you're scaling back on your spend and how is that? How are you as a marketer managing through this?"
And I said, "Actually, I'm not scaling back. In fact, we're spending more this year, because we did that work years ago where we really established the value we were driving and we could prove it. So actually, we're spending more because they know exactly what we drive for the business." And so, it's been really interesting because it's clued me to think marketing is often the first thing that gets cut and that's a signal to me that perhaps the marketing hadn't quite entrenched itself deeply enough in the business, when it was making spend decisions when times were good to understand the value that it was driving.
Because if it's the first to go whenever times get tough, that tells me something's kind of fundamentally wrong in how marketing is being applied potentially, potentially. So, yeah. I think that's a really, really good lesson.
Charles (44:33):
It's an interesting point you make actually about others’ podcast. One of the things just to say this out loud, because I haven't before. But it's part of the kind of realization and evolution that I'm experiencing, which is, when I approach somebody or when somebody approaches me about being on the podcast, there's always a conversation with the comms team about what we want to talk about this, we want to focus on that.
Andréa Mallard (44:49):
Right. (laughs)
Charles (44:49):
And I always say, "I'm not going to talk about the business."
Andréa Mallard (44:53):
(laughs) That's right. Yeah. Yes.
Charles (44:54):
I'm not desperately interested in the—
Andréa Mallard (44:57):
It's so boring. (laughs)
Charles (44:57):
—in the business part. But I've become more and more and more curious, fascinated, actually, by the human dynamic of leading—
Andréa Mallard (45:03):
Absolutely.
Charles (45:04):
—these businesses.
Andréa Mallard (45:04):
Absolutely.
Charles (45:05):
And I'm so drawn to that, I think my own life is evolving through that lens as well. And then, you get the chance to meet people like you who really make you start to think about life, you know, fundamentally differently—
Andréa Mallard (45:14):
Wow.
Charles (45:14):
—and through multiple dimensions.
Andréa Mallard (45:15):
Wow.
Charles (45:16):
It's really interesting.
Andréa Mallard (45:17):
Well, it's so interesting because, and for the sake of your listeners, typically when you do a podcast like this, the interviewer will send the questions ahead of time and if you have a wonderful comms team, which we do, we have the best. They will say, "Oh, they're going to ask this. You might wanna touch on that the last, you know, so that's great."
And as I was heading over, my amazing comms leader, Elizabeth Luke said, "We got no questions whatsoever. (laughs) He won't give us questions. You're just gonna sit and have a great conversation." I thought, "Perfect. That sounds... What a relief. Let's do that. Sounds great." (laughs)
Charles (45:44):
Well, you learn a lot about, you learn a lot about the organization and about the leader through that process, because we get that question all the time—
Andréa Mallard (45:50):
Right.
Charles (45:51):
And I always say the same thing, which is I don't care how practiced people are—
Andréa Mallard (45:54):
Yes.
Charles (45:55):
—how experienced they are, the conversations are better when we get to know each other in real time on the air.
Andréa Mallard (45:59):
Yes. Yes.
Charles (46:00):
And if people are willing to... I hate the phrase. I need to find a better one. But if people are willing to lean in, it becomes richer for everybody.
Andréa Mallard (46:06):
Absolutely.
Charles (46:07):
You, me, and the people that are listening to this.
Andréa Mallard (46:09):
Well, and, you know, I'm awful at small talk. It's funny. I was fortunate enough to get a lovely award yesterday, which was wonderful but, again, my comms leader, Elizabeth Luke said to me, "This is torture for you, isn't this? This is awful." And in a way, I said, "It is, because these dynamics don't allow for actual conversations." You kind of chit-chat, you glad-hand, you say hello, and that can be Cannes writ large in many ways. It's a lot of superficial level conversation.
Charles (46:37):
We're all doing so great all the time.
Andréa Mallard (46:38):
Oh.
Charles (46:38):
My life is perfect. I don't know about yours.
Andréa Mallard (46:38):
It's so wonderful, isn't it? And so, to be honest and I don't know what this says, but spiritually I feel relieved talking to someone like you. I feel, I feel, "Oh, my gosh. We're actually saying something to each other." (laughing) I would rather get right into it with someone than just stay on the surface. Absolutely. I suspect most people are that way. We've been trained out of it. We have probably mostly superficial conversations all day long, but what a relief to have a real one. So thank you to you.
Charles (47:04):
I couldn't feel, I couldn't feel more the same. It's absolutely true. Last couple of questions for you.
Andréa Mallard (47:08):
Sure.
Charles (47:09):
How do you lead?
Andréa Mallard (47:11):
Oh, how do I lead?
You'd think that, that would be an easy question to answer and yet somehow it's not. You know what? I think I lead... I think I'm, I'm very rolled up sleeves type of leader. I think I lead with a lot of transparency. I lead with as much honesty as I can offer, in a given situation. I want to be as generous of a leader as I can. I think I'm very demanding though, to be clear, I think I set a quality bar. I think I set a pace and I've certainly gotten feedback in the past that says, "It's too fast. It's too much, you know, this is..." You know, I think I'm indefatigable... I'm not easily tired. When the work is great, I can go forever.
But I try to lead, you know, I read this book by Jennifer Aaker years ago, which was about humor in business. She's a Stanford professor and how humor is one of the most under leveraged business skills, (laughs) and the thing I try to remember is that this is supposed to be fun. And so, as a leader I try to bring the fun or find the fun and it's strategic in many ways. Because when I see the team in the flow enjoying themselves, the work is better. The work is so much better. This is not meant to be a slog.
Life is not meant to be a slog, and so I try to remember that as well and, and try to inject self-deprecation, humor, a sense of joy, into the work we do and certainly celebrate when it goes well. I remember getting feedback, I think where I've had to calibrate better over the years is I once got a piece of feedback where I, I was giving what I thought was great advice on a project that had gone a little bit pear-shaped.
This is years ago. This is before Pinterest. And a young woman turned to me and said, "You know, I love feedback for me just not on a Friday afternoon." (laughing) And it was a really good thing she said that, because I said, "Yeah. I needed to learn as a leader, what was the right feedback to give, when and why, and what should you just let go, you know? And when is good enough good enough?"
And a lot of time good enough is good enough. And I think I was always looking for perfect and that was damaging the work, profoundly. And I thought it was only making it better. "No. No. You've crossed the point of no return here." So that's one place where I've had to adjust as a leader is learn when good enough is good enough and better is actually worse, overall. And that takes, that takes some subtlety. That took me years to develop.
Charles (49:32):
And I want to ask you this next last question, maybe penultimate question, through a lens if you're willing. So you said to me that you had a very serious illness—
Andréa Mallard (49:41):
Yes.
Charles (49:41):
—a number of years ago.
Andréa Mallard (49:42):
Yes.
Charles (49:43):
How did that change your… what are you afraid of now after having lived through that?
Andréa Mallard (49:49):
Oh wow. You know, I... Well, I'll tell you what. When you were, when you get ill, boy, does it draw into sharp perspective what actually matters to you. It is the most wonderful gift in the world, because certainly work falls away immediately. (laughs) Work, seems like the silliest thing in the world in many ways in that moment. You become sharply focused on your family and the love you have for your family. And really all the sadness you might feel in a moment like that is just, "Oh, I might not get as much time with these people, these four, five people that are the closest to me." And certainly that was my experience
And so, it also helped me see that my time is the only thing I'm not getting back. It is the only thing that actually matters is how you spend your time and it allowed me to make much more conscious decisions about time, even, you know, my current choice of work was actually a reaction in many ways. I wanted to have a more, what felt like a more purposeful, joyful career. And so, I actually got the phone call from Pinterest around that as I was going through that experience. And I thought to myself, "I believe in the mission of this company, but more importantly, that sounds like fun. And I would like, I would like my work to be fun."
And, you know, the opposite of play isn't work. The opposite of play is boredom. And I recognize that I wanted to have a job where I could bring my whole self where I could be playful, where I could enjoy it so that I could enjoy my life. If I didn't enjoy my work, I wasn't gonna enjoy my life. And I recognized when you have the threat that your life might end, even if it's a theoretical threats. Boy, do you pay a lot more attention to how you spend your time. You know, it's the most expensive thing in the world is how you spend your time.
And so, it helped me a great deal. I wouldn't take it back, by the way. As traumatic as that experience was and as awful, and how I have now the burden of you have always a little, there's a little voice in your mind that says, "What if, what if this could..." Yeah. This at all could come back. It might not be all taken care of, who knows? I wouldn't change it. I, I would prefer to live this way, because I see the world in full color. I really do now. I see it in full color.
I remember even leaving, you know, post all of... I had surgeries. I had all sorts of things that I went through and I remember when I had to go in finally to the doctor to say, "Hey, we think, we think you're okay now." And he could have easily said, "We think you're not okay now and you won't ever be okay." You know, it was really that binary. We didn't know which way it might go. And I remember walking into his office like I was walking through mud. Like I could barely move my legs. I could barely will myself to go in and get that news.
Charles (52:29):
Mm-hmm.
Andréa Mallard (52:30):
And when it turned out, "Hey, we think this is going to be okay." I floated out of that building, truly. And I remember look— It's such a cliché, but I remember looking up at the trees and thinking, "God, look how gorgeous those trees are?" No, truly. And that was the sensation was like, "What a gift I see the world in full color for the first time. Do not forget this feeling."
I said that to myself, "Do not forget this feeling of gratitude, live your life, live your life." And that's what I've done ever since.
Charles (52:57):
So based on that as you look to the future, what are you afraid of?
Andréa Mallard (53:01):
Do you know what's funny? I don't, I don't have a deep— It's funny. I've had this conversation with my children and, you know, every so often, you know, as children will do they will say, "Oh, you know, I don't want you to, you know, please, don't die." You know, little kids will often say things like that. And what I say to them is that is, "Not the plan, but if I do, you are going to be absolutely fine. You're going to be absolutely fine. You have all the tools you need to be fine with that." I don't feel fear now, because I believe that of them that they will be okay.
The only fear I have is just not getting to be part of this adventure as long as I would like. But I think I will have peace with that too. I just... I am doing the... I feel like I'm living the life I want to live and I'm trying to give the children I have, I'm lucky enough to have the tools to live their life so that if it doesn't go the way I hope, they'll be okay. I would feel... My mother actually died quite young as well and I remember her saying to me, you know, and I was so upset about it at the time, obviously. But she said something very profound.
She said, "Andréa, you're okay so I'm going to be okay." And that was such a gift, because I don't think she said that for my sake. I think she truly believed that. I think she felt like, "You know what? I am so confident you will be fine that I don't feel, I don't feel a particular fear right now." I feel very similar actually. And so, I feel my job in life is to make sure they are okay with or without me. And so, I don't have that much fear. I don't have much fear.
Charles (54:38):
You talked earlier about wanting to live a big life and I think this conversation is one of the most striking examples that a big life has nothing to do with volume or size or scale. It has to do with depth of feeling, of commitment to being the person you want to be—
Andréa Mallard (54:54):
Oh.
Charles (54:55):
—and to having the impact you want.
Andréa Mallard (54:55):
Oh.
Charles (54:56):
And I can't thank you enough.
Andréa Mallard (54:57):
Oh, what a pleasure.
Charles (54:58):
This conversation has been an absolute pleasure.
Andréa Mallard (54:59):
A pleasure. Thank you for including me. This is a wonderful conversation. Thank you.
—————
Let us know if there are other guests you’d like to hear from, and areas you’d like to know more about or questions you have.
And don’t forget to share Fearless with your friends and colleagues.
If you’d like more, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com where you’ll find the audio and the transcripts of every episode.
If you’d like to know more about our leadership practice, go to thelookinglass.com.
Fearless is produced by Podfly. Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Producer and editor. Sarah Pardoe is the Media Director for Fearless.
Thanks for listening.
