Liz Taylor of Ogilvy
Who is helping you be you?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 389: Liz Taylor
Here’s a question. Who is helping you be you?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach their leaders and their leadership teams, to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Liz Taylor. She’s the Global Chief Creative Officer at Ogilvy.
Everyone has a story. Liz’s story, as you’ll hear, has a traumatic beginning. She grew up with an abusive father in a home in which there was always a loaded gun. The police were called often. She and her mother and brother and sister would sometimes have to leave in the middle of the night.
That kind of start to life leaves a mark.
“I don't want any toxicity. I want it to be a place that people feel like they can be themselves and grow and do the best work of their lives and not feel like they're walking on eggshells, not feel like someone could stab them in the back, not knowing what could…. And I didn't think about it ‘til we had this conversation, but I'm sure that comes a little bit from my childhood of, like, I just want to shut that sh*t down. There's no place for it and no need for it.”
We are shaped by our past, consciously or unconsciously.
Which means the person we become can be defined by circumstance. Or by choice.
Sometimes these choices are informed by the presence of a powerful partner in our lives. For Liz, that partner, as you’ll hear, was her mother.
Today, Liz's ability to so clearly and powerfully declare the kind of environment she is determined to provide as a leader, is influenced by the protection and the support that her mother provided her.
But sometimes, the choice of who we want to be does not come from the example set by someone else.
Sometimes, all we have to work with are circumstances in which we were left alone to figure it out for ourselves. Circumstances in which there was no one we could trust.
That can be a lonely place.
One in which it can be overwhelming to ask ourselves honestly, is this who I really want to be?
But I know this to be true beyond a shadow of a doubt.
There are people around you who care. People who want to support you on your journey. People who will help you find your better angels and hold on to them.
Our past shapes us. But it need not define us.
Only we do that.
We just have to ask for help.
Here’s Liz Taylor.
Charles (02:53):
Liz, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Liz Taylor (02:57):
Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.
Charles (03:00):
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious that creativity was a thing?
Liz Taylor (03:05):
I think creativity first showed up in my life, probably in two ways. One, when I was way back in junior high. I had a writing teacher who was just kind of magical and inspirational and I was probably a little bit of an outsider at that time. I wasn't in like the in clique and he really taught me to put those feelings into books and writing. And I wrote a book when I was 12 years old and it won a contest.
And it was one that the high of winning something and being able to put that storytelling into it. So that was definitely a moment. I still have that award, which was a very funny thing. I think that was when creativity first showed up, and I was a theater kid. So I mean, there's so much creativity around, you know, bringing magic to storytelling of life and jazz hands and theatrics, which is really part of our every day.
I think those are when it really was, like I this… and I took painting classes. I think I just was like, the arts spoke to me in any way. I wanted to be a Broadway star, even though I don't have a good voice. I loved writing. I read, I still read a book a week. So I think all of those things, but I didn't know that that was creativity.
Charles (04:29):
Was writing a book a daunting prospect? How did you start that process at 12?
Liz Taylor (04:35):
It was like a non memoir, memoir. So I think the teacher... I mean, I remember the book was a, I probably still have that book somewhere, which is embarrassing. But it was about a girl's adventures at overnight camp and mean girls and cliques. It was my own probably personal experience from going to overnight camp as a kid.
So I think, I don't remember all of that other than I'm sure he said outline something that would be interesting and a story. And I grew up in John Hughes-land—
Charles (05:07):
Yeah.
Liz Taylor (05:07):
—in the North suburbs of Chicago. And, you know, they’re real insightful human stories that are slightly exaggerated. And so it's like, if you think, think about those movies, Meatballs, Little Darlings, and then all the way to like, you know, 16 Candles, I think it was like, oh, that's kind of fun. So finding my voice, creating characters that weren't me, but me, mean girls, but not the ones I really knew. Changing their names slightly.
So I don't think it was daunting as much as freeing. Like I could write my own experiences into that, but hide it a bit.
Charles (05:43):
I'm always fascinated by people who are able to take ideas and turn them into actual output and content, but obviously the business is built that way. But on a personal basis, I speak personally when I say a lot of us have a hard time with that. So I think the instinct to be able to say, I have something I want to say and I'm prepared to spend the time and have the discipline to be able to do that is remarkable.
Particularly at that early age. Has that been true for you throughout your life and career?
Liz Taylor (06:06):
Yes. I have a memoir that is 100 pages in, that has been a side passion project that eventually one day I will finish. I tell everybody, so when people ask me, how's the book coming? I feel like the pressure of I already told people that that's going to happen, so I better do it. My favorite style of book to read is dysfunctional memoirs.
Charles (06:31):
(laughs)
Liz Taylor (06:31):
I read great fiction. I don't read a lot of business books. I find it as my escapism, is reading. It's a little bit like, you know, my yoga, my, I read every night before I go to sleep and dysfunctional memoirs is one of my favorite genres. And I had a slightly dysfunctional childhood. I shouldn't even say slightly.
And so I think reading a memoir is so fascinating because you know everything's okay. It’s because the person can look back and reflect on that moment. And so I want to turn that dysfunction into entertainment and even though it was dark, it can, it's like dark comedy and I can find the humor in it now.
And I think it's who I am and I like to think I'm funny or as a result for it, or resilient as a result. So it has stayed with me. I've taken, you know, I've gone on writing workshops, I've taken summer classes at University of Iowa. It's sort of this side thing, but because it's a memoir and some of it is heavy, it's not something I can just go upstairs at the end of the day and write a quick chapter because it's not that fun. (laughs) You know, it's kind of heavy.
And then I’ve got to turn the heavy into like a lightweight thing because that's my personality. But it's definitely, I love to create, I love to write, I love to write stories. And so for me, that's sort of always in the back where I still do it.
Charles (07:51):
What are the stories you're including in the memoir?
Liz Taylor (07:53):
It definitely takes place during my high school. So it's funny that the other one was junior high, and this is high school. It's my four years of high school. And everybody always says, you know, if they hear some of the dysfunction, they're like, how are you so normal? But I had a pretty abusive dad—
Charles (08:13):
Mm.
Liz Taylor (08:14):
—and an amazing mom who's so overcompensated. Like, my mom's my hero, she's amazing. And just a crazy fun family. But the high school years was highly traumatic in terms of, let me just give you like, we'd leave sometimes in the middle of the night.
Charles (08:28):
Mm.
Liz Taylor (08:29):
You know, my dad ended up leaving my mom for someone who was a year older than me when I was in high school. Like, there's good stories in there. So I can look at it now, and have a bit of the David Sedaris, it's so crazy. Or Running With Scissors. If I tell you, you won't believe it's true because I grew up in an upper middle class - nobody knew.
It was very hidden inside our doors and you know, I turned out okay. So it all worked out. But it's the stories of there's a lot of crazy, it's that four year - eventually obviously he went on and my mom found someone else that was amazing - but it's those four years of high school were so crazy. So that's where the—
Charles (09:14):
Is that your therapy?
Liz Taylor (09:17):
Well, I have a therapist, so it's not my therapy. It's not my therapy. I don't know what it is. I think it's a way to... I love... I'm a storyteller and I love telling stories. If we were sitting in a bar right now and you were like, tell me one of them, I would tell you one of the stories for 20 minutes and your jaw would drop and I would paint, you could see the film of that moment in time.
And I just love telling those stories. And I think that is, it's not that I think I'm so special and have an amazing story, but it was wildly, for where we grew up, people would not know it. You would not know that the police were called to my house often. You would not know if you met my mom, you'd think she's the most amazing woman. You would not know what she had to endure.
And so I think it's a little bit of, I like to be authentic. I like somebody to know like, "Hey, my life was not perfect. I didn't have this idyllic childhood. It was wildly the opposite, as dysfunctional as you could be."
And I think I like sharing that story, like a little bit of a surprise. Like, who would think that that was, if you knew me, you might not know that. I remember when I shared some of them once with Joe Sciarotta or Rob Riley, like, the jaws drop and I have some fun, it goes back to my theater days, too. I'm not embellishing anything, but I'm definitely, oh, come with me if you will. Let me tell you a little story.
And I think it's a way to put that down on paper. I think the hardest part is like, because I'm, you know, the narrative arc and where do I start, where do I end? Are they just flickers in time? And you know, not wanting to offend anybody in the family or, you know, and it is heavy stuff. He was abusive, he was a terrible human being. We were scared of him. You know, you see those things on the news where people do like, the murder suicide, like where they kill the whole family.
And that was the fear we had growing up. And so there was a loaded gun in our house with threats all the time, which is why I do a lot of gun work, by the way, for gun safety laws. We should not have had a gun in the house. And so I think for me it's like one, I'm okay. I have a great husband, I have great kids. I love my job. I made it, I can reflect on it. I can find the crazy humor in it, even though that was not funny at all at the time.
But, you know, we're creative all day, we're working all day. I don't really want to go upstairs at night and write another chapter about that. So I tend to wanna go to a secluded cabin in the woods for a week and write. So that's when I try to do it, but I haven't done it in a while.
Charles (11:53):
How did those experiences change the way that you treat other people?
Liz Taylor (11:58):
Well, I'm definitely a survivor.
Charles (12:03):
Do you feel that way today?
Liz Taylor (12:05):
Yeah. I mean, my mom, like my, I would say my mom and my brother were more of the survivors and although we were all part of it, but it wasn't towards me. I just was a witness of it and I was in it. Um, I definitely am a kill ‘em with kindness, human being like my, kill ‘em with kindness, kill ‘em with creativity, like kill an ad, I'm going to come back with 20 more. I definitely have a resilient spirit.
Like, I think it's like, come at me. I got like, this is nothing, you know, this is a pitch. You should see what I grew up with. you know, I think I can find humor in a lot of, it takes a lot to, to rile me or, but I think more than anything, because of my mom, I forget that I had such a terrible childhood sometimes. Because she's so overcompensated and she's so amazing and so wonderful and the kindest, most loving human being.
And I think I go to the light and I want to be the light. I want to fill people's buckets. I want to create an environment where people feel safe. I didn't feel s— like my mom made me feel safe. He didn't make me feel safe. So it's like, people do their best work when they feel like they can fail or there's no barriers in the way, or you're free to be who you are. You don't have to be on edge.
And so I think as a leader, I like to think I'm an empathetic kind - I'm tough on the work, not on the people. And I do not want any toxicity. I've had enough of that from my.… You know, so I don't do well in toxic environments. I'm not in one right now, which is great. I think where I work, but I would never want to be a leader where if I hear of something that is dysfunctional or toxic, I want to fix it.
Charles (13:54):
So, you step into those situations.
Liz Taylor (13:56):
1,000. I jump into them and I try to resolve them and I try to fix it if it's broken. And because, you know, there's always going to be, you know, it is a business. There's problems. But I definitely am not, I don't run from them. I wanna fix them. I roll up my sleeves, they don't scare me. And I tend to be the insane optimist. I believe in the good in people and I believe in positivity.
And I think it's leading with light also, to be the cheerleader, to be the, I don't want to be an oppressive leader. I don't think you need to knock people down to raise them up. And I think that's more my mom, less my dad. You know, it's like I've seen that. I've worked in places with that. It works for some. It's not the leader I ever want to be or the people I want to surround myself with.
Charles (14:49):
It doesn't work for very long, does it?
Liz Taylor (14:50):
No, it doesn't. And I don't think it's good for people's souls. Life's hard.
Charles (14:55):
Yeah.
Liz Taylor (14:55):
You know, my mom once said when I was debating two jobs at one point, and I was talking about it was more money, it was a bigger title. And she said, "Well, what is stopping you?" And I said, "I love coming into work every day right now." And she said, "You can't put a price tag on that." And so that, that that little piece of advice and I didn't go, because she's right. You can't put a price tag on how a place makes you feel.
And so to me, I don't want any toxicity. I want it to be a place that people feel like they can be themselves and grow and do the best work of their lives and not feel like they're walking on eggshells, not feel like someone could stab them in the back, not knowing what could…. And I didn't think about it ‘til we had this conversation, but I'm sure that comes a little bit from my childhood of like, I just want to shut that shit down. There's no place for it and no need for it.
Charles (15:49):
Is your mother still alive?
Liz Taylor (15:50):
No, she died, a few years ago. This week's her anniversary of her death.
Charles (15:57):
Oh, I’m sorry.
Liz Taylor (15:57):
But she's, she died right before the pandemic, which was probably good. I don't think she would've done well in that pandemic. She's the most amazing neurotic, lovely Jewish classic mother who brings you matzo ball soup on your birthday and homemade chopped liver. And, but she, right before she died, I had just accepted a worldwide CCO job at Leo Burnett. And it was the... I mean, my mom was like, she'd get Adweek, Ad Age, Creativity. She knew everything about our business because she was so proud of me and happy, you know, she just was great. And so I was happy that she got that moment. And I totally believe that some magical power put me back to Ogilvy because she knew it was the job that was home to me.
Charles (16:45):
How did her loss affect you? How did her death affect you?
Liz Taylor (16:48):
Oh, it still, it still affects me. I miss her. We talked every day. I stayed in Chicago my whole life because, not because of her, because I was worried about her, but, we're so close. My family, aside from the, my dad's not alive either anymore. But I loved my husband. I started my career in New York and then we moved to Chicago. My husband's like, “All of our vacations are spent going to Chicago. Maybe we should live in Chicago and take actual vacations,” because we're so close. We would talk every day. She was so good to my kid. We lived four blocks from her. So it was a hard loss and it was a quick, she had cancer and it was fast. I'm glad she didn't suffer. But she was a great mom. She had a good life. I don't think she would change anything even though she had a terrible husband for a long time. She got her kids out of it.
She was also looking ahead and we're doing this and I've got my kids, what more do I like? I don't know. And she worked, she was a jeweler. She was a hardworking, at her end, she worked, she retired and then missed people. And so she went and worked at the local Walgreens just so people could come in. And she became known as the candy lady and everybody loved her.
So the loss is hard. But, you know, I still talk to her in my head. I still miss her. And I know she'd be proud, but it's tough.
Charles (18:06):
Do you feel like how you do what you do is part of honoring her?
Liz Taylor (18:11):
I don't think I'm honoring her. I think she just, I like the thing. She loved my stories. Whether it was a story about my kid, I'd be like, "Oh my God, I’ve got to tell you what happened with her and her boyfriend." And she'd be like, "Tell me another one." And then if I'd come back from Cannes, she'd be like, "Tell me some good stories."
Like, she was the best audience in terms of that. Or if you'd go on a shoot, she'd be like, "What's the director like?" She loved the details. It was never just, “How was your day?” And so I think that's partially how I became a storyteller. I think it was probably escapism a bit for her. And also she just loved it, loved hearing about people. So I don't know that I'm hon—I mean, I always like to think I'm honoring my mom, but I just think she'd be all she ever wanted was her kids to be happy and successful. So I just know she'd be so happy.
Charles (18:58):
Coming out of that background, all those experiences, when did leadership show up in your life? When did you start to think about leadership being something that was important to you?
Liz Taylor (19:07):
It's such a funny thing, right? I spoke at Syracuse University recently, and nobody goes into this job thinking, I can't wait to be a manager. You know, you go in because you're a maker and you're creative and there isn't really the proper, I think it's the only, I'm sure there's other ones, but where it's not a direct, like, you start as a writer and then you become more of a leader.
And I think, I'm not sure if you're ever prepped for it or when do you realize you want it. I had some great leaders, I had a lot of great leaders in my and mentors along the way. I feel very lucky that I had that. And I feel like taking little bits of like, oh, I want to do that one day. I want to be that person. I want to champion someone or mentor them or teach them the craft of this. And so I think there was always little bits of that where I'm like, that's an interesting bit.
But I think when I really wanted to step into more of a leadership was probably when I was with either Dennis Ryan or Joe Sciarotta. I loved their leadership styles, for different reasons. I think Dennis was just so charismatic, believed in talent, great with clients, great with setting up a department, believed in people, good human being, cared about craft, made people better. And I had fun.
And so I think that's when it was like, I want to do that someday. That was, I think probably the first time that I'm like, I wonder what it takes to get there. And then when I was with Joe, I was an ECD and I believe that, you know, I always say I am who I am because of Joe and he hates when I say that.
But from day one of, of our meeting, which is a funny story about a poker game, which we can get into, from the interview to when I started, I think he saw me as a CCO and he was like, she's a CCO, I'm going to, and he really taught me a lot, without making it feel like he was teaching me a lot, how the business worked, how to avoid politics.
The stuff that you don't necessarily ever get unless you kind of just watch it. He really did. And he, that was, that was when I think he put the belief in me without saying, I believe you can be a CCO and this is what you need to do. He did it so well and so lovely and made me feel like I could conquer the world.
And when I did get an offer to be a CCO, which was with Susan Credle, who I believe is, maybe she was the first one who believed in me. I always tell Susan, "You changed my life." Like, you're the one who said she's the one of our biggest office in our network when I hadn't even done it yet. You know, you never, like when somebody tells you they have another job offer. And I loved my job, so part of, I didn't really wanna leave, but it was to be a CCO. And I'll never forget how Joe responded, he gave me a hug and said, "I'm so proud of you."
Charles (22:08):
Mm-hmm.
Liz Taylor (22:09):
He said, "You're not leaving. We're going to figure it out, but I'm so proud of you and you deserve it." And that's another thing as a leader. How do you make somebody feel when you're recruiting them when they're there and then when they leave? When I went to FCB and we, you know, I'll just use this an example.
When we won in Cannes, Joe and Ogilvy, Chicago were the first people up on their feet cheering for me. That's leadership. Like you can, you can be a good person. You can root for people, you can root for our industry. those few things were when I was like, I gotta, I gotta take all that in. But by the way, I was so clueless as a CCO when I first went and did it, and really was like, man, nobody tells you that it's not just making the work better.
I didn't know about this part and that part. And so it was an adjustment. I mean, I knew there was, there's a business side to it and all that, but it definitely, I think the first time you're a CCO, it's a bit of a whirlwind in the beginning. And no matter what people prep you for, it's different and it takes a little bit to get your footing.
Charles (23:16):
The spotlight, I think is the thing that surprises most people. The intensity with which everybody is suddenly looking at everything you say and don't say and do and don't do.
Liz Taylor (23:24):
Decisions and non-decisions. And then everybody want, like, protecting your time and who you do it and like making sure your leadership teams align. I don't know that I knew about the importance of a leadership team.
Charles (23:37):
Yeah.
Liz Taylor (23:38):
You know, like, are you all aligned? Do you all want the same goal?
Charles (23:42):
Yeah. So you say you do, but do you really behave—
Liz Taylor (23:43):
But do you, and how do I know? Like, I didn't know to, like, I just, I was like, “Oh, you seem smart and that's cool. And you like, you know—”
Charles (23:51):
I like you.
Liz Taylor (23:51):
“—I like you, you like orange Kool-Aid. I like orange Kool-Aid. Let's be besties.” You know, I don't know that, you know, what to look for. I think you're so excited that someone believes in you.
Charles (24:03):
Yeah.
Liz Taylor (24:03):
Which is amazing.
Charles (24:04):
Yeah.
Liz Taylor (24:04):
And you're not everyone, like, someone believes in you enough to creatively lead one of their offices and you're like, I can do it. I believe I can do it. They believe I can do it. And then you get in and you're like, oh, there's dynamics here that I just wasn't familiar with. There's a leadership team, I've got to get this whole group. Are we all aligned? Because if you're not, you're just going to take one step forward and two steps back.
And, I didn't fully understand that. I think the spotlight, you know, like, you say one wrong thing or you, like, it just, it's a lot. You come home a little depleted in the beginning, and then you find your groove hopefully, and then I think it's great. But, it is really hard, in the beginning, it's always hard. It's not an easy job, but I think your leadership, you don't have a leadership style. You think what you want to be, I want to lead with kindness. I want to be an empathetic leader. I'm going to embrace curiosity. I'm going to find the quiet person in the corner and see why they're quiet.
You know, you have all of this and then it's like this hurricane of stuff comes at you that you weren't expecting, or there's people demanding you to do things and you're like, well, it's just, it's tricky.
But I think every job I've ever had has made me better and I've grown and I learned things I didn't know before. And I think that that's all you can ever ask for in your career. And hopefully you can do the things for people that they did, you know, you can pay it back to other people. But leader, I don't think you ever think like, what kind of, I was thinking about this, you know, last night. I'm like, oh, is he going to ask me what kind of a leader I am? I don't know what kind of a leader I am.
I just know like who I'm just me. I was like, I'm me. You know, I am a kill ‘em with kindness. My glass is three quarters full. I don't give up. I'm resilient. I try to will things to happen.
I want to, I like to be a cheerleader. I'm theatrical. you know, but, you know, is it working? I hopefully, you know, like it's the seems to be, but I'm not somebody who sat down. I mean, I believe in executive coaches, I love coaching who helped me figure out like, what are the three things, you know, what's the mark you want to make on people's lives? And I think that that's when you also start to shape, okay, is this doing the, you can ask yourself, is this the thing that's doing it? And if not, how do I shift and adjust?
But we're still creative souls and I'm not sure, you know, I am obsessed with my clients. I love their business. I think we do our best work when we can impact their business and impact the world. I believe in all of that. I don't think I sit at home at night and say, am I.… What kind of leader do I want to be? Am I being a good leader? I just hope it's working.
Charles (26:56):
It sounds like you have a pretty strong sense of it though. I mean, the articulation you just gave me is a pretty consistent, clear outline of the kind of leadership that you want to provide.
Liz Taylor (27:06):
But I think it's my personality also. Like, I don't think it works. It's authenticity, right?
Charles (27:12):
Yeah.
Liz Taylor (27:12):
Like, I don't think somebody who—
Charles (27:14):
You can't fake it.
Liz Taylor (27:15):
You can't fake it. But I do think some people are like, you can't go read some book and go, that, I'm going to do that. You might glean some things from it. And so when the kind of leader I want to be is just, it is who I am as a person.
Charles (27:28):
I read somewhere in prepping for this, that you are writing a presentation on the Ted Lasso leadership way.
Liz Taylor (27:34):
Yeah, there was Ted Lasso and I'm a big poker player.
Charles (27:39):
Yes. I heard, I want to talk to you about poker in a second.
Liz Taylor (27:41):
So the Ted Lasso, poker playing, and then there was the cheerleading Netflix show. I love watching. I think.… So Ted was another like, again, like some people find Ted Lasso so cheesy or they love it or they don't, but I—
Charles (27:57):
I think it got us through COVID, for most of us.
Liz Taylor (27:58):
I mean, it definitely did. And I just watched the end of the finale and I got far more verklempt than I thought I would. (laughs)
Charles (28:07):
(laughs)
Liz Taylor (28:07):
I don't know, it must've been the moment. But he believed in people.
Charles (28:12):
Yeah.
Liz Taylor (28:13):
And he believed in the best in people and he believed if people left, then they should leave. And they're like, I'm not going to, like, you know, and he'd find ways to bring out a team and I really loved his leadership style. And I think, again, it's Hollywood and that's how it worked. But he walked into a not great thing. People didn't really want him. I've been there, I've been forced into people, you know, Leo Burnett didn't really, wasn't like, can't wait for— you know, Mark Tutssel amazing. He's lovely. Those are big shoes to fill.
Like I think people are like, let's see what you got. I don't think you're Mark Tutssel. I'm not like, you know, I'm going to try to be Liz Taylor. Mark was amazing and I'm so grateful. Even now, I'm so grateful for that organization that he created and the DNA.
And I think Ted's like, “I'm Ted, I don't, I can only do what I can do and hope.” Let's hope, let's see if it works. Let's hope, let's hope it works. Let's try to bring out the best in people. Let's work on problems. I'm not going to avoid them.
Charles (29:18):
Well, the most resonant part of the ending, I think is when he says to Trent Crimm, “Change the title. It was never about me.”
Liz Taylor (29:24):
Right.
Charles (29:25):
Right? Which is really ultimately what great leadership is about at its heart.
Liz Taylor (29:29):
Yeah. It's like, I mean, that's the tip, right? It's not, it's the, it's selfless servant leadership. And I believe my job is to make other people successful. And like, if I can have an impact on their lives, if they can look back and think of me the way I think of Joe Sciarotta and Dennis Ryan and Susan Credle and Terry and Sandy, I mean, literally everybody I've ever worked for, they made me better.
There was a before and an after, and I would like to be that for people, and for clients, you know, working with us. And so that's, but I can't fake it. There have been times when I felt like I had to put on a persona where some, you know, maybe somebody has said like, I don't like what you're putting out on social with your family. That did happen one time.
And I'm like, "I'm a mom. If you don't want me to be a mom, I'm not right for this place." I live for being a mom. I'm proud of being a mom. I want other moms to have a see it be it if she can do it. I have two kids and I'm like, why? I don't understand that. I'm not good with it. You know? And so that goes back to like, I am who I am.
And so when you want me to put on this other thing, it won't work.
Charles (30:51):
Do you think, I had Suzy Deering on the podcast a few months ago, who's the former CMO of Ford, among other things. And she talked about the fact that when she arrived at a new job, she would stand in front of the people that reported to her and say, there are three things that matter in my life, my faith, my family, and my work. And if that causes a problem, we should probably have that conversation now. What you are describing is very similar—
Liz Taylor (31:11):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (31:12):
—in its openness and its vulnerability and its honesty. Do you think that's a trait that women find easier to bring to the table than men? That level of honesty and openness—
Liz Taylor (31:22):
Yes.
Charles (31:21):
—and vulnerability? Yes.
Liz Taylor (31:24):
I do. I just, I mean, I do think there's men, not to say that men can't and men don't, but I—
Charles (31:30):
But they've been trained not to.
Liz Taylor (31:32):
Right? And I think women have been, were for years trained to hide—
Charles (31:36):
Yeah.
Liz Taylor (31:37):
—that by—
Charles (31:37):
Be more, be more like a man. Right?
Liz Taylor (31:38):
Be more like a man. Which, you know, sometimes I'll jokingly say, man, I wish I was more of an asshole. Just sometimes, you know, somebody will be like, do you really? I'm like, no, I don't. Because that's not who I am. But sometimes, you know. But, I think so I think it's… people for so long were like, you can't show emotion. Why I'm human. You know?
By the way, I don't want everyone crying in the halls, like sobbing all the time. But if somebody needs to cry like you're human, we cry. You know, it doesn't, I'm not going to hold it against you. And if you're a mom and you want to talk, or if you're a dad and you want to talk, either way, we're human beings and we're multifaceted and you might have children or you might not, you know, you might be having marital pro—
All of that comes into work. So I don't think we have to put on this, at least for me, I can't put on, as much as I love theater, I can't pretend to be somebody else all the time nonstop. I would be drained and die. And so for me, leadership and where I work have to do with me at my best. Do they bring out the best in me? Because it's just like, I don't know, I don't have time for errors either, or being fake.
And I think that women were, you know, I don't, it's a weird, it's a funny question to ask because it is like female leadership. I have a female partner for the first time in my career as a CEO.
Charles (33:13):
Who shares many of these characteristics.
Liz Taylor (33:15):
Yes.
Charles (33:15):
She was on the podcast in December.
Liz Taylor (33:16):
And you could, I was, you know, I think I told her when I was first starting, we can't be too easy on people though. We're not, neither of us are pushovers, ask anybody. And she, we're both, we can be bulldogs. And we were like, you know, but we believe in being empathetic and authentic and it's okay to be yourself, and tell us about your family and tell us about.…
But I think like that's where like Joe did that and so did Dennis. I never felt like they wouldn't let me be, you know, have a little bit more of that EQ or, you know, emotional side of things. But for years that was not leadership. So my guess is women just are more in tune with it sometimes,
So they are comfortable doing it. But I don't know anything else because that's just, again, that is who I am. I'm sure there's women that aren't and there's men that are more. But I think there's a maternal, like, I think there is a bit of, people have said like, “Oh, she's a mama bear,” at times. And it comes from my mom. I want to take care of people. I don't want to coddle them. I'm not going to tell you everything's perfect if it's not. I'm not going to, I'm not a pushover, but I like to think that I'm human.
And if you are frustrated, you can tell me. If you're angry, you can tell me. If you're sad, you can tell me. And that you, again, I think people will bring their best selves when they feel comfortable being their best selves.
Charles (34:57):
When Devika was on the podcast, she said something that, that might be the most sort of discussed point that I've actually been exposed to in the six years of the podcast. She talks about the fact that she loved the people that she works with, and she tells the people that she works with that she loves them.
Some people have reacted to that with absolute abandon, and I think that's fantastic. Other people have said never could I imagine that level of warmth or intimacy. I care about them, but I can't ever get to that point. Tell me about your experience of working with somebody for whom that is a reference point.
Liz Taylor (35:31):
It's so Devika so again, it goes back to like, she's being who she is. So I think that part's wonderful like that. She, you know, I don't walk around and tell everybody I love them. There are certain people that I might, you know, but it's so natural. So for me to work with some, it goes back to that, right? She is her whole true that is Devika.
But yeah, I don't know. That's just, I think it goes back to that. It's funny that that's the most dis- like one of the most discussed thing. I'm sure people are like, you shouldn't love the people you work with or you should or, but she'll also have really f*cking hard conversations with people. When I first was interviewing with her, meeting, we had never met, which was crazy.
I knew of her reputation. It was amazing. I knew her partnership with Rob Riley for years. I knew her creative, you know, I knew her client relationships. Like I knew how people like her reputation and we had never met. It was during the pandemic and it started as calls. It was like she exuded Indian warmth, love.
And it was a lot at first. And I was like, is she going to be tough enough sometimes, you know? And then at one point she was like, I don't think you're ever going to take this job unless I come to Chicago and we see each other face to face. And I said, "Well, you're probably right." Because I wasn't unhappy in my other job. And she said.… By the way, it was the pandemic. I didn't leave my house. I hadn't gone to dinner. I hadn't seen my friends, I hadn't seen my family outside of like our four. And I think she thought I was gonna say no, because she also hadn't. I was like, "No, you're right."
And she's like, "Oh my f*cking God, I have to get on a plane right now."
Charles (37:19):
(laughs)
Liz Taylor (37:20):
And she did. And we had dinner and it was like we were long lost friends. And so how do I feel about that? I think it's part of what I love about my job right now is that we enjoy each other's company. I feel like I've known her forever. I think she's fantastic at her job, but she is her. What you see is what you get. There is no games. There is no, like, this is who I am to the, I'm going to walk the hall. I have worked with people who put on a persona.
It is like what I think of politics, right? It's like the politician, and then the real person behind the scene. I had so much experience with that. I did not like it. And I was like, that has to be so draining for some of those people. So working with somebody who can tell someone they love them, who can give a hug, we can swear. I mean obviously we don't swear in front of clients who don't like swearing, but like, it's just, we can joke. I can tell her that I'm like, you know, I'm moving my son into college that day. I need to take off.
In the past I was sometimes nerv— I would still do it. There was things that are like my kids. I never miss a birthday. I do not miss the monumental things. I might might've missed a play. I might've missed some things here and there. But there are what I call non-negotiables. A birthday is a non-negotiable for me with my kids. It's because of my birthdays with my mom. They were non-negotiable. I quit a job once because they told me I had to miss my son's first birthday.
Charles (38:55):
Mm.
Liz Taylor (38:55):
And I said, "I don't have to, actually."
Charles (38:57):
Mm.
Liz Taylor (38:58):
And so with Dev, I think it's the, I get to be me. I can say I am going to go do something with my kid, and I don't have the fear. Maybe going back to my dad of what's gonna happen if I'm not fully prepared for one of our town hall meetings and I just wing it. Or if I do this, and I think she fully embraces me and herself.
Charles (39:26):
Yeah. That is a version of the answer I gave the people who questioned it when they heard it. And I said, that's exactly who she is. And she couldn't be effective by trying to fake her way by being less than that.
Liz Taylor (39:36):
Yeah.
Charles (39:36):
I think she has to be that expressive.
Liz Taylor (39:37):
And I'm sure at some point in her career she had to stifle it a bit.
Charles (39:42):
Yeah. She said—
Liz Taylor (39:43):
And it didn't work.
Charles (39:43):
Yeah. She said she spent a lot of time when she first came to this country trying to fit in, and she realized the way to get ahead was actually to stand out, which I thought was very insightful and astute. You have to talk to me about poker because—
Liz Taylor (39:54):
Poker—
Charles (39:55):
—you have—
Liz Taylor (39:55):
—my favorite.
Charles (39:55):
—you have a reputation for being a poker player.
Liz Taylor (39:57):
Is that good or bad? I don't know.
Charles (39:58):
I think, well, I mean, Poker Powher, the Jenny Just—
Liz Taylor (40:02):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (40:02):
—business, right?
Liz Taylor (40:03):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (40:03):
Clearly has helped a lot of women develop some skills that are necessary in the business world. Tell me how you came across poker and what is it about poker that you love?
Liz Taylor (40:12):
So we were a big card playing family. My mom had a girl's poker game. My dad had a poker game. I learned cards at a young age. It was like how people do board games. We did card, various card games. So I've always seen that. It's been part of my life. It was fun. I think when Texas Hold'em became big, I was in ad school, I was at portfolio center in Atlanta and we had a game.
And so it was just like something, I didn't realize that, literally just like female creative leadership, that there was only 10% of all poker players are women. I didn't realize that that wasn't... Nobody... My mom played. So why am I not playing? I didn't know that that wasn't a thing that women didn't play. And so I learned Hold’em and I played, I should have looked around.
I was usually the only woman at a table, but it didn't phase me. So there's always been poker. I love it so much. And I think it's, so I did a presentation actually, I think it was a year ago to WPP. We had this WPP offsite and the global CCOs each had to do like a creative TED talk, if you will, on anything. 10 minutes. Go. Just, you know, and so people did, and mine was on poker, and I really believe that being a creative leader makes me a better poker player.
And being a poker player makes me a better creative leader. You read people, you have to have high EQ. You sit down at a table with 10 people that you don't know and you've got to watch their behaviors, which are like tells, but they're little things like how somebody shifts in their seat when they get angry. That's leadership.
It's my job if somebody is like, I need to see that, okay, they're uncomfortable in this moment. They're angry in this moment. Oh, this is happening. And so that is fascinating. Just being able to human behavior at a table. Risk reward. You have limited information and what are you gonna do with that information? I only know what I have and what's showing. I don't know what the other people have. I don't know what's gonna come. And that's a lot like our business.
We have limit, you know, like we don't know if a pandemic's going to come. If we're in a pitch, we don't always know who our competition is. We don't know if a client's going to, you know, want something else in a meeting. And so I do think there's a bit of the improv in that of, how do you adjust? Okay, this is what I'm thinking, but this is happening. So now I've got to quickly adjust. So there's risk reward, human behavior, storytelling.
Charles (42:58):
Mm-hmm.
Liz Taylor (42:58):
There's so much storytelling. I've got to exude a story. I got to pretend I have a hand even if I don't have a hand sometimes. Or I've got a, how I behave. This is the, we are in a story together. There is nonverbal storytelling happening,
Charles (43:14):
From the second you sit down, in fact.
Liz Taylor (43:15):
From the second you sit down, which is another funny thing. Everybody's always like, "Do you wear the hood? Do you wear the glasses?"
I'm like, "I am Liz Taylor. I sit up, I'm talking to people about their families. I am literally just me. I don't put on the.…" I have friends, by the way, who put on the glasses and do the whole thing. And I'm the same. I am at that table that I am in a pitch, that I am in my family at home. I am the same. But I love the, I mean, you also have to understand finance and business. I mean, that is, you know, it is, you have a little bit of money. You have to be resilient?
You're not playing. If you just play the hand, you're not playing the long game.
Charles (43:58):
Mm.
Liz Taylor (43:59):
Whether you're in a tournament or a night playing, like it's not the one hand. If you lose the one hand, if a client doesn't buy the work, if you lose the pitch and you just focus so much on that, you're going to lose the whole game. So there's so many skills that apply to both that I think it's so fascinating.
And then the all in, sometimes you're going to risk it all, not all the time if you do that all the time. And so I think from the improv and being able to adapt and to change and to read people's personality and to have fun when you're doing it and to be competitive. So yes, I love it. It definitely gives me that rush. I live for it. I'm pretty good at it. I've knocked out Phil Hellmuth, who's like the most awarded, and it was like, that was the, that is like my Cannes network. You know that—
Charles (44:52):
That's your Grand Prix.
Liz Taylor (44:53):
That's my Grand Prix. I had to take a picture with him, but that was my Grand Prix. And that's when everyone's like, "But are you good?" Like, how good are you?”. Are you, I'm like, "I knocked out Phil Hellmuth. He's the most winningest poker player of all time. And I knocked him out of a tournament."
So I can hold my own. And the story by the way, with Joe, when, when I first interviewed with Joe years ago, I was with somebody else. We were a team and we were interviewing and they were both from Detroit and they were chatting up, it was Detroit and hockey and Detroit and hockey. And I was like, Joe is never going to remember me from this interview.
And I knew, somehow I knew he played poker, too. And I said, "Oh, Joe, I hear you play poker." And it was like, what?, he like immediately shifted towards me. He goes, "I do. Do you play poker?" I said, "I do actually." And he's like, "Are you good?" I go, "I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good." He's like, "No, really, are you good?" I'm like, "I'm good." He goes, "How good?" And I go, "I'll play you for the job."
Charles (45:52):
(laughs) Wow.
Liz Taylor (45:54):
And he goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean you'll play me for the job?" I said, "I'll play you heads-up poker. We'll do a tournament. If I win, I get the job." And he goes, he's definitely, his whole being changed. He was so excited in that moment of any true poker player, I just raised the stake.
Charles (46:10):
Joe was, Joe would love that.
Liz Taylor (46:11):
And Joe's like, "Well, what if you lose?" And I go, "I'm not going to lose. I will not lose this." And he goes, "Okay, but like, what if you lose?" I go, "If I win, I get the job. If I lose, I'll work for free for three months." Because ultimately I don't lose then. Because I figured I will get the job at the end of that, you know, three months. And he's like, "This is, I don't even..." I, he... Joe was never speechless and he was totally speechless. And then it ended. He's like, "I'll talk to you tomorrow about that. We’ve got to do that poker thing."
And then the next morning my phone rang and it was the creative recruiter and she's like, "Hi Liz. So we talked to HR and we can't do that poker thing."
Charles (46:55):
(laughs)
Liz Taylor (46:56):
So I love that they asked, they literally asked and they couldn't do it. But then I did get the job and I did go there and we do play poker and it's fun.
Charles (47:07):
A question I've started asking recently, which I'm really curious to get your answer to. There are very, very few global CCO jobs in the world. Most of us are not going to have this job. What's this job really like?
Liz Taylor (47:20):
Well, you know, I can't speak for other networks, but one of the reasons why I came back to Ogilvy is it is a true global network. Sometimes people say they're a global network and they're not really connected. I mean, we have a worldwide creative council. We meet every Tuesday, like we meet every week. We are highly connected around the world. We have a lot of global clients. So there is the connection between what is London, China and Canada doing about.
So we are really connected. I think because we have global clients, because we are so close as a creative community, the only way it works is because we have a belief in borderless creativity. And it's not a creative belief. It is an organizational belief and our operating system. So nothing gets in the way of a team from London, a team from Hong Kong, a team from Ca— working on a brief.
Other places I've worked, it might be a country model. It might be. And so things get in the way of that. We don't have that. You can give people more opportunities. We can be truly global in our insights. You know, we had an assignment once and we needed some more insights and we got all our strategists together on a quick call. And then we had the different regional strategic thinking. And so I think because we operate, and I know it's one of those phrases borderless creativity, but we, it is how we operate. It is in our DNA, it is how we move. It's how we've always moved from way back when from when IBM.
And, you know, I think the biggest part of that job is we can have global perspectives and global insights from around the world. I think, my job is to make sure, I mean, I'm a better leader because I'm not just siloed in my little place in Chicago. You know, you have a client like Dove. We love Dove.
What Dove might do in India is different than what Dove will do in the US. They don't have a Crown Act issue. It is not legal to discriminate against black hair in India. But, so those are, for me, the global job is like within our clients being able to give the different perspectives, you know, the way future wives are treated in India, like they have to be beautiful and look a certain way and have light skin. And that is different from the US.
So I think because we have the clients, because we have the infrastructure and the creative community, my job is to make sure, one, it is an ongoing, we keep that moving, that we share talent, that we do the best work on behalf of our clients that will impact their business or the world in every region. That we don't, just like we, where are we not great enough and have to get better.
Like we are a well-oiled machine when it's all working. And so for me it's bringing that together, having a clear vision with my leadership team of what, what do we want to accomplish? What does modern, you know, marketing and business and strategy look like? How do we make sure we honor David Ogilvy's legacy and make it interesting for new generations to come, for clients. But I think the way to do that is globally. It's also our point of difference.
I don't believe anyone has as strong of a connection and places around the world. They're not just places. I think some global networks, they have locations. We have places here. I think for, again, I'm pro Ogilvy, so I'm going to talk about, but my perspective at working at other global networks is it really is a networked creative company.
Charles (51:20):
And the DNA runs deep in this company.
Liz Taylor (51:22):
Yeah.
Charles (51:23):
Yeah. I worked at Ogilvy more years ago than I care to admit back in the day when David would still occasionally show up and walk the halls, you would turn the corner and you'd be confronted by him. Last two questions for you. How do you lead?
Liz Taylor (51:43):
How do I lead? (laughs) I'm going to give a big pause. How do I lead? I show up. I mean, I think I'm in it. I don't lead from a mountain. I show up. I'm in it, I'm there, I'm present, and I'm myself.
Charles (52:08):
And as you look at the future, what are you afraid of?
Liz Taylor (52:19):
I mean, I always like have this— I lead with a bit of paranoia and ambition. Like, I'm always paranoid, but if you're just paranoid about, you know, we're going to lose to the tech compa— Like, if you are only paranoid without the ambition. So, you know, I think, what am I afraid?
I'm not really afraid. I don't know. I mean, I want to be, I want to stay around.
I'm afraid of... I don't know. I don't have a, I mean, I have little…. My biggest fear is like always, I just want, I don't want this to go away. I said last year, other than my mom not being alive was the greatest year of my life. My kids are doing great.
My husband is happy, our marriage is amazing. I love my job. And it's like, okay, how? That's a lot. Like when I told people that I'm like, it was literally aside from my mom not being alive was the greatest year of my life. And that's such amazing feeling. And so I don't want to feel the way I've maybe felt in other, in other jobs or in other moments in my life when my mom was dying.
Like, or when my dad, I want, I don't want that. I don't want tox— I, I fear toxicity. I fear darkness. I like the light, I like the optimism. I like having fun. I love my marriage and my kids. And so I think I just fear maybe, you know, health, happiness, like the basic things. That's what it comes down to. Health, happiness. My kids, my family.
I just don't want anything… that's probably what I fear the most of like, just like, I want everything okay. I inherited that from my mom.
Charles (54:17):
Somebody said to me a couple of weeks ago that they think that the purpose, our purpose in life is to heal ourselves and to evolve. And I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to learn the lessons of our life and then to be able to be aware enough about what matters to us in order for us to be successful and to find the place and the places where we can be successful.
It's pretty clear to me that you have learned a lot of lessons from your life and have been able to find the things that matter to you and to find the place that makes you happy and successful. And I wish you nothing but continued success.
Liz Taylor (54:52):
Thank you. And thanks for having me today. It was great. I was nervous. (laughs)
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