Avery Baker
PARTNERSHIP LEADERSHIP
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 403: Avery Baker
Avery and I have developed a new leadership paradigm for creative and innovative businesses. We call it ‘Partnership Leadership.’
Here’s a question. Is your ego getting in the way?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to help their leaders discover what they’re capable of and then to maximize their impact.
Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Avery Baker. She’s the former President and Chief Brand Officer of Tommy Hilfiger.
Avery came on the show in 2018, an interview that we recorded at the Cannes Lions Festival. I called that episode, “The Empowering Leader”.
“I've always believed that great ideas come from anywhere and it's really about the power and the thought of the team, not ever of one person. And because that's been instinctive, I think I've been pretty comfortable for a long time, managing from a more open point of view, that I don't have all the answers all the time.”
Six years later, and six months after she stepped down from her position at Tommy, Avery is determined to build her future on a simple but powerful truth. That often the greatest threat to our own success is ourselves.
“I'm actually afraid of letting a fear of irrelevance drive my decision-making about my future, because I actually don't think that that should be the defining thing. So, I think I'm afraid of getting pulled back too much into an ego area, where the steps and the path that I might choose professionally aren't in line with wanting to add more meaning to me and to others' lives in the work that we do. But relevancy and ego, they can get in the way. So I don't want to let those animals become bigger than they need to be.”
The desire to empower others is a noble goal. It’s also an essential skill to demonstrate as a leader. Avery is a powerful example of that.
In my work, I’ve also discovered that the person often most difficult to empower is ourselves. And Avery’s recognition of that, in my experience, is rare. It’s also brave.
For many reasons, some seen and others not, the ability to give ourselves permission to unearth what really matters to us, is one of life’s hardest challenges.
To quiet the noise and the insecurity of our ego, to put aside fears of irrelevancy so that we can hear, really hear what we want to find out about ourselves and who we want to become, is a challenge that requires personal courage.
It’s a challenge that we don’t win at the first attempt. It’s one we may never fully triumph over.
But the determination, the desire, the acknowledgment that we have the right to decide our own destiny. That no one else - not even our own ego or our own fear of irrelevancy - should be allowed to limit our desire to become fully realized.
If your choices and decisions about what’s important are being driven by your insecurity, buy your ego a drink and have it sit in the corner.
Then empower yourself to decide what really matters to you and what’s stopping that from becoming true. You’ll be an infinitely better leader. And a happier human.
Here’s Avery Baker.
Charles (03:32):
Avery, welcome back to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.
Avery Baker (03:37):
It's my pleasure.
Charles (03:39):
You are in the slightly different position than a lot of my guests in that you are not working for a company. You're able to take some time and reflect on yourself, your life, your career, what you want to do next. I'm curious, as you've gone through that process or are going through that process, how do you see the role of creativity evolving in the business world? You've got such a distinctive vantage point at the moment.
Avery Baker (04:04):
That's a great question. I think that creativity's never been as important as it is today, because truly special either experiences or products or connections, I think creativity is really the defining factor. And I also think the way of unlocking creativity is becoming different right before our eyes, because of all of the incredible advancements that we're seeing with AI and other technologies that we're talking about all the time these days. So, what's possible with humans and in partnership with machines is going to lead us into new territories that we're only just starting to imagine and visualize.
Charles (04:55):
Do you think people are worried about their own level of creativity in their ability to, I don't know, is compete the right word? There's a challenge now, right? I mean you and I were looking at Midjourney a little while ago, and it's ability to create images out of nothing that you would used to have to rely on either a photographer or a graphic designer to be able to create. I'm just wondering, do you feel like people's sense of their own creativity is being challenged, or is it being expanded by the capability of technology?
Avery Baker (05:23):
Well, it's interesting. I mean, certainly quite a few of the creatives that I've spoken to that are starting to explore these new technologies, find it a real asset in helping them do their work. You know, for example, putting together kind of a concept presentation for a client, that used to take hours of trying to articulate what you think it will look like in the end, can now be done in minutes. So, I think a lot of creatives are finding that it is an asset, but I can also understand that, you know, there is a potential, let's say, threat to industries where now this might be able to be done without a human touch. I also think that, you know, coming out of the pandemic and also just with the rate of change and stimuli in all of our lives coming at us all the time, that a lot of creatives I know are struggling to feel inspired. You know, the pace of the world has just picked up and creating space again for inspiration to come in. I think you have to fight to create the space for those creative impulses to come in. And I'm hearing some creatives struggle with that, as well.
Charles (06:45):
I read an article just yesterday, I think that talked about how many businesses in certain sectors, probably less in the creative industries at the moment, but in certain sectors, are really getting to the point of wanting to force people to come back into the office, certainly four days a week and more and more, you're starting to see five days a week. Are you seeing evidence of that, as well? And what's the ramification of that?
Avery Baker (07:06):
I'm hearing a lot of the conversations with different executives at different organizations who are debating that exact point and what is right. And there definitely seems to be a move towards requiring that people are there in person, because I think a lot of organizations seem to be feeling that it's hard to build connections and it's hard to build a culture when you're not together for a reasonable amount of time in person. But then at the same time, you know, you have Neiman Marcus who just announced complete freedom. I think no one knows the right answers yet, but I am not surprised to see organizations that are swinging more towards some sort of mandate of having people together in person the majority of the time.
Charles (08:01):
I'm struck by the fact that I don't see a lot of proactive experimentation. I see a lot of reaction to what other people are doing, and I see reaction to some companies struggling to create connection three days a week in the office. Some companies struggling to create a kind of a tipping point in terms of how many people come in or what days. But I don't see, it's felt to me for a long time that this change that came out of COVID could become a real competitive advantage if companies used it proactively and strategically, and thought about how they wanted it to reflect their culture. But I don't see a lot of that. I see a lot of companies saying, “Well, they're doing three days, so we're going to do three,” and, “Now we need four because we're not getting this.” Are you seeing people proactively thinking about, how do we turn even the ability to ideate around what the workplace should be into a competitive advantage?
Avery Baker (08:51):
I'm not seeing that as much internally, but I know that there's actually some organizations that are popping up externally that are helping companies to take that longer view, and to take data from across different organizations and different models, and start to help organizations look at that through a wider lens and through a wider sample set. My impression has been that, you know, leading a business and the decisions such as this that go along with that, in the last few years, it's been kind of one thing after another, in the overall economic geopolitical landscape. And the decisions therefore have ended up being, or felt maybe a little bit reactive to the previous step, rather than to what you're saying is, hey, let's take that longer term strategic view. It's almost felt like a luxury that a lot of organizations either haven't had the time or prioritized doing yet.
Charles (09:55):
Yeah, I think that's right. I think there's still a lot of reaction going on and people still trying to respond to external forces and actually internal forces, as well.
Avery Baker (10:04):
I also think, you know, it's very hard to find a solution that solves for all, because I see pretty significant differences in the attitude towards going to the office from different generations, different ages. I see differences based on, you know, whether people live in New York or whether they live in Amsterdam or LA. So I think there's a lot of differences to solve for, and in a way, it's a no-win situation, but at least you want to try to get closer to something that, as you said, reflects your company's ethos and values and will have your people be as happy as possible and as productive as possible.
Charles (10:51):
Yeah, I think ethos is one of those things that, it's a word that gets bandied about, but not that many people really take the time to sit down and think about, what is our ethos and how do we measure that and how do we apply that? I interviewed Greg Hahn a couple of weeks ago, who is the Chief Creative Officer and Co-Founder of Mischief in the US, and he was fired from BBDO four years ago, formed Mischief with some partners about six months later. Was named Agency of the Year 18 months after that. Was just named Agent of the Year again. And I asked him the question towards the end of our conversation about whether being ejected so suddenly from BBDO, and the journey that he's been on since then, had given him a perspective on his life journey.
The analogy he used was that fish don't realize they're in water until you pull them out of water. And that he wasn't aware he was missing the freedom of personal expression, the freedom to be able to craft a business in his own image was something that he had never really understood the possibilities and the potential in himself and in others that he might be able to unlock. I'm wondering, from your experience over the last few months, what has this experience been like in terms of you looking at your own life journey and your own sense of self?
Avery Baker (12:10):
It's been first and foremost a gift to have the time to be able to actually pause and assess those things. I think, for many of us, also going up the corporate ladder in a big corporation like BBDO or Tommy Hilfiger, you know, without even realizing it, you're like in the current of fast rushing river, and you're going kind of where the current takes you. And it can be wonderful, amazing experiences, but it's not that often that you get to get up and stand on the bank, and watch it go by for a minute. And that's how I've been thinking about it. Another water analogy, is taking a look at where I've come from, where the current is flowing and, do you get back in or do you take a different fork in the river?
I mean, I think there are so many interesting choices that younger generations realize already, in terms of career and career path, that it's very feasible for younger generations to think about pivoting from one industry to another, or from one type of role or work to another. And I think many of us who've grown up in the corporate world of our generation haven't thought about it that way. So, I think to be able to step back, recognize one's experience, and also one's interests and passions in other areas, and think about, okay, proactively, what could I do with this? What do I want to do with this that maybe takes a different shape? And I think that's been a real gift to be able to do. And it doesn't happen automatically. You have to put the time and the work and the effort into it, but that's then where I think you often can find the most rewards.
Charles (14:12):
Is it hard to give yourself permission to have that kind of freedom of possibility?
Avery Baker (14:19):
Absolutely. I think we probably all have a comfort zone, a safety zone of what we know, what we've grown up in, what's worked for us. And if you don't know what a new destination might look or feel like, it's pretty scary to step off the track of the one that you're on. It's like looking ahead in the dark and not knowing what's out there. So, it can feel uncomfortable. But I think, we've talked about this, this idea of curiosity and, I mean, I'm a super curious person, as are you. There's just so much out there to still learn about, in terms of life and opportunities and experiences and work and life and how those things merge together, that just staying curious and being open to learn, I think naturally gives you the momentum and the courage to just keep being open to new things, at least for me, rather than just staying in the exact box of something that I love, but it's also something that I've done and that I've always known.
Charles (15:31):
And as you are open to new possibilities, what have you found are the ways that you've filtered those things? How do you judge, what is something that is really compelling and interesting and uplifting to me versus something that just seems appealing because it ticks a lot of boxes that I might have found meaningful five years ago? Here's a job opportunity, and it could work for this company or this title. I mean, that's traditionally how a lot of us have made choices about our career. We are drawn to certain things that make us feel better about ourselves and give us a sense of security that, both, you know, personally, professionally, financially. But as you explore this possibility, as you explore this idea of freedom, how do you judge what you should be drawn to? What are the criteria, the characteristics of the things that make you go, oh, okay, this is more than just a title and a company name. This is something that gives me, on a deep emotional level, something that's meaningful to me.
Avery Baker (16:32):
So, I've heard a lot of great advice as I’m going through this phase from different individuals on how they assess exactly what you are asking. And I think first of all, like, it's personal for every person, right? There's the four Ps of, you know, People, Place, Positioning. There's all these different ways to do it. But I think what I've found helpful is really getting very clear on the things that will matter to me in this next chapter. And for me, those things are not only professional goals, they're looking holistically at my life as a professional, as a mother, as a friend, as a wife, and, you know, as a person who loves to work and make things happen. But looking at that more holistically, has been a very helpful starting point.
And that already has given me a filter for the types of work or the types of industries where I feel, first of all, I can be around people that I really feel I share the same values with, that I'm connected with. That's, to me, the number one thing. And the number two is realizing that I want my next work to have the ability to have a greater impact in this world that we're living in or on others. And then of course, there's personal criteria, right? Like, we should all have fun. I think having fun is so underestimated. You should have fun when you work, not (laughs), you know, not just outside of work. So who you are, who you're surrounded with, the culture. And I think coming out of the fashion and retail industry, there is an element of aspiration that's important to me, whatever it is.
And I'm a brand person, but I know that I need to feel super connected personally and proud of a brand that I work for. And that's very different than ego. And I think I've worked very hard going through the exercise that I'm still in, of separating what sounds initially exciting because of your ego, you know, the brand is amazing and it's one of the best in the world. Of course there's a lot of appeal to things like that. But I think getting past that and into the things that matter, for me more as a whole human, are how I've tried to orient during this phase.
Charles (19:24):
When you have a title like President, Chief Brand Officer of Tommy Hilfiger, there's a lot of validation that automatically comes with that, regardless of who you are in that role, right? Whoever is in that role gets imbued with a bunch of different characteristics and qualities, as well as expectations. When you step away from that, and you become Avery Baker, how do you find your own value proposition, without the power of the institutional branding that goes with a big title at a company? How do you navigate recognizing that you are in and of yourself valuable without all of the other stuff that goes with the big title and a big job?
Avery Baker (20:03):
Well, it takes a minute, particularly if it's an organization, and it, like in my case, that I was a part of, for almost 25 years. You know, I was with Tommy Hilfiger longer than I've been with my husband, you know. So I think that's an unusual circumstance. But it, you know, it had become for sure a part of my identity. So, rediscovering your identity and your essence and your experiences and capabilities without someone else's nameplate on the front, definitely takes time. But, I think it's been a great journey of also realizing and looking back on what I, and amazing teams, because nothing that we ever accomplish is alone. But I think what collectively through all of the different chapters of the brand's growth, like, what we were able to achieve and do, and take that company from $850 million to become a $9 billion global brand was, there were a lot of amazing learnings and a lot of amazing experiences and, you know, some great successes, some failures, too. But I think when you kind of get into the contents, that has for me really been a great realization of how much I was able to experience on that journey. And how fortunate I have been to have lived so many great learning experiences and learned from so many talented people. And that comes with you, whether the nameplate comes along or not.
Charles (21:50):
And is it liberating to be able to look at your, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm just wondering, it seems like it would be liberating to be able to decide what you want to say in the world and what you want to talk about without having to worry about how that fits into a larger corporate narrative. Has that been freeing?
Avery Baker (22:07):
Somewhat. I mean, I have to say, I never felt that I couldn't do that. You know, I was always allowed to be my authentic self, whether it was as a leader in the company or if I was speaking publicly. But there is something different when you're speaking publicly on your own thought leadership rather than having the big brand stand behind you. So, on the one hand, it is liberating. On the other hand, it's definitely a new experience where I think it's required me to get very clear on my own principles and philosophies and experiences, so that hopefully that can be very helpful to others.
Charles (23:01):
Obviously the podcast focuses on leadership. As you look back at your own personal leadership evolution, what do you see that journey entailing? Where did you end up on that journey from the perspective of leading a giant global business?
Avery Baker (23:18):
Well, probably ended up with thoughts about leadership pretty similar to where I began. It's the part in the middle that got a little messy And I think I might've mentioned this to you before, but one of my role models on leadership actually has been my father who was an entrepreneur, and in the way he conducted his business and also in the way that he conducts his life wherever he goes, he just treats people with a tremendous amount of respect and humanity, no matter what their background is. And so I've just conducted my life and myself that way at an early age, and I kind of naturally brought that with me into the working world, and to be honest, I think it has served me well without that being the main intention. But I think, you know, especially if you are growing, and you're in a high-powered environment, and there's a lot of different other styles of individuals that seem to lead to success, it can be easy to kind of gradually lose sight of that.
And, you know, in trying to do the right things for the business, which is always necessary and admirable, sometimes you lose track of how you do that in a way that's also right for the people. And sometimes it's really hard for those two things to be reconciled, to be honest. So, I think I had a lot of learnings along the way, moments where I grew a lot, moments where maybe I wasn't proud looking back of how I've handled things. And where I left off, you know, in the last few years at Hilfiger through pretty turbulent times, I think it kind of brought me back to the realization that leading with humanity is more important than it has ever been, in my opinion. And that's exactly where I started. But I think that maybe now, A, feels like the world needs it more, and B, maybe there's more room for that than there was when I started out my professional career, 27 years ago.
Charles (25:45):
Yeah, you and I have talked a lot about this over the last few months, and I think we've both come to the same realization, the one you've just espoused, that human leadership has never been more important. I think we've also struggled from different vantage points with coming up with a leadership philosophy or a description of leadership that encompassed all the things that we had either experienced from a leadership lens, or were observing, or having shared, in my case, with some of the people I work with. So let's talk a little bit about this ethos philosophy paradigm, I think we've called it from time to time, that has emerged out of those conversations. I think the point you are just making, if you place humanity at the core of any leadership philosophy that is meaningful, going forward.
The thing that I know I had struggled with was the clear realization that hierarchical, top-down leadership no longer worked. That was built from a different era, a different time. It was actually a hand-me-down from the Industrial Age. There had been, in recent years, at least a conversation, maybe a bit more than that, towards this idea of servant leadership, where leadership became about making sure everything was working for everybody else. People who've listened to this podcast for any length of time know that I've always struggled with that as a concept because it just has an air of passivity. And the people I've talked to who are trying to implement it suddenly get very passive. They think that service means passivity. And it feels to me like anti-leadership.
So we came up with this other definition that between us, we decided we would call Partnership Leadership. This idea that you can actually treat the people that you work with and that work for you as partners in a partnership. It's not an equal partnership. Somebody still has to make the tough call. Somebody still has to make the hard choices, but that the ability to actually look at each other and, starting with a leader say, these are my strengths. This is what I know I'm not great at. These are strengths of yours. Let's be honest, this is what you're not great at. Let's put the sum total of the things that we're great at together and make sure that all of the needs of the organization, the business are being met in a much more honest, transparent, self-aware way than I think anyone's really ever talked about leadership before. That certainly to me, starts to make sense, that in a modern world, it gives leaders the ability to actually create a structure, create a reference point that says, oh, I want to be more human. I want to be more open. I want to be more transparent. I want to be more sensitive to the needs of the people around me, but I need to do that within the context of what the business needs. From your perspective, what does Partnership Leadership do, or create the opportunity for people to do from a leadership lens that has been missing?
Avery Baker (28:36):
I think that it, well, you had a wonderful quote, which is that talented people want one thing more than anything else. They want to make a difference. And I think that that's what this, in its best form, can do. Because there are many great talents out there, whether it's specific functions or broader. And I think the ability to really feel that your hard work is creating an impact, is recognized, is respected, that you have a seat at the table, and that your voice matters, and your views matter, whether they end up being the final ones or not, that they matter, is extremely important in motivating people in their feeling of self worth and probably ultimately the kind of work and contributions that they produce. And I think that it also can create, as a leader, if you're willing to be more transparent and candid about the desire to have this be a more fluid approach to leadership, I think that it can really create a very strong sense of team, and a very strong sense of belonging for different individuals who are different, who have different strengths and different weaknesses.
So I think there's a lot more connectivity that can come through, and really benefit the individual as part of a greater whole.
Charles (30:20):
And I think what triggers it all, what is a prerequisite, is it has to start from a place that the leader is self-aware and has humility. That they are conscious of the things they do really well. And I think even that is worth a moment, because what I find over and over again is that, and I think this is human nature, but I think the things that we are naturally gifted at, come so easily to all of us, whatever they are, that we assume everybody can do them that well. And so we minimize how important or how special that is, and we fixate on the things that we don't do well. And then a lot of leaders just spend a lot of time trying to be better at the thing they're either mediocre, or worse than mediocre at, and worry about being seen to be bad at something because they see it as a sign of weakness. I think what we're suggesting is, let's flip it around, let's really understand somebody's strengths. Let's help them see their strengths, let's help them acknowledge weakness or vulnerability, and use that as a strength because it opens the door for other people to step in and provide that capability.
Avery Baker (31:23):
And I think there's really a need for that today in a lot of the problem solving that's required for so many unknown things that are coming up in all of our different businesses. I think, you know, the more different perspectives you have around the table tackling that instead of, you know, one or two “great minds,” as long as it's moderated effectively, I think, it can probably lead to stronger results because it comes from different perspectives and different strengths. But the other thought that I learned firsthand, because in my good moments, I think I was able to demonstrate the positive aspects of type of leadership. But of course, as leaders, I mean, we also all have our moments when the pressure is on, right? And they call those your de-railer moments. And what I've seen from a lot of leaders, myself included, is that when the pressure is really on to deliver something, suddenly Partnership Leadership kind of goes out the window and often a leader can get really hands-on and try to drive everything personally, because they feel the responsibility, and they care and they want to make it work and they want to win.
But suddenly it can be quite confusing to go from what we just described into almost the archetypal model of the leader controlling every piece of it. And I think in a lot of the circumstances that are alive and well in the world today, that happens a lot. So it was, for me, it has been a real learning, and is one that I will continue to work on, is to not default to that as the way of safely navigating through high pressure times, because that's actually probably what takes us, I think, a few steps backwards. Whereas I think, as I said before, we have a much greater chance of progress with engaged, motivated, positive, talented teams when you're still giving room and space for them to do that, despite the heat being on.
Charles (33:46):
Yeah, it's such a great point because the other dynamic that's involved here, obviously, is fear. It's such a powerful force in all of our lives. And I think what we've both seen is that the antidote to that is clarity of vision. What is it you're trying to achieve? And that if you're really, really clear and conscious about, this is what success looks like, I've really defined success, we as a group have defined success, we are drawn towards that outcome. Certainly from my experience, the clearer somebody is about that, the more they're able to overcome that short-term reactive feeling or sensibility or response to a set of circumstances, because they recognize this is temporary, this is a distraction to the thing we're trying to achieve, or this is a problem along the way, let us overcome it. And I've always been struck by the simple analogy of defining the journey and being clear about that.
You know, the, I use an analogy, one year, at Cannes I think that said, you know, fear can be overwhelming unless you're really clear about what is you're trying to achieve, rather. And I said, you know, if you're terrified of flying and you get to the airport and somebody says to you, okay, there's one seat left, it's on a double decker Airbus, you're in the very back row, you're in the middle seat, you know, there's no food. It's a 15 hour flight, and the weather is terrible, it's going to be bumpy. Most of the way you'd say, there's no chance I'm getting on that plane. If somebody said, well, it's your only daughter and she's getting married at the other end of it, and the wedding's happening tomorrow, and the only way you're going to get there is by getting on that plane, you're getting on the plane.
The destination matters so much to you that the fear of everything, this pathological fear, you're going to overcome it. And so I think it's easy, and I think we've both seen this in lots of different ways, but it's easy for people to get caught up in the moment of the emotional dynamic of, if this goes wrong, I'm going to be seen badly, or this is my worst nightmare, or something about my self perception or other people's perception of me is going to be reduced or diminished by birch of this thing. I can't allow that to happen. If you act from that basis, the chances are very high that you're going to end up not succeeding. And if you can keep the context of what you're trying to achieve as a group and as an individual, to the fore, that is the thing ultimately that drives you forward, past the inevitable human dynamic of fear.
Avery Baker (36:12):
Absolutely. I'm a big fan of context, and just trying to continually come back to that during those moments of turbulence, because there are those moments. There will be, and they can be tough. But putting it into context of why as a team or individuals, why you're going through those, or why you have to suffer through that in order to get to the destination. I mean, I think the context, and having open communication around that, even at scale, I think helps people work through what's going on, because the pace of business and the pace of growth expectations today is super high. So, keeping keeping the broader orientation, and the context in place for people, I think, is super important.
Charles (37:09):
So we've written about this and we're going to put this out into a place where people who listen to this podcast can find it. So we'll add a link into the show notes, when we do that. So if you're interested in understanding this more deeply, the concept of Partnership Leadership, then you'll be able to read more about the way that we perceive that and the benefits of it. Last question for you, as you look at the future now, from the perspective and the vantage points you have, what are you afraid of?
Avery Baker (37:41):
Ooh. Well, I would say the first, the thing that pops up, which is, the first answer would be irrelevance. However, I'm actually afraid of letting a fear of irrelevance drive my decision-making about my future, because I actually don't think that that should be the defining thing. So I think I'm afraid of getting pulled back too much into an ego area where the steps and the path that I might choose professionally aren't in line with wanting to kind of add more meaning to me and to others' lives, in the work that we do. But, you know, relevancy and ego, they can get in the way. So I don't want to let those animals become bigger than they need to be.
Charles (38:43):
I just don't think you can say it better than that. Just don't think you can. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I just think the journey you're on is extraordinary and I have found it inspiring and helpful in so many ways. So thank you so much for sharing.
Avery Baker (38:59):
Thank you for your constant thought partnership through all of this. It's been absolutely invaluable. And thanks for having me today.
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