Tom O’Keefe & Jeff King of BarkleyOKRP
What do you think and why?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 406: Tom O’Keefe & Jeff King
Here’s a question. What do you think and why?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to help their leaders understand themselves better, to discover what they’re capable of. And then to maximize their impact.
Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guests are Tom O’Keefe and Jeff King. They are two of the four partners who have just merged their respective businesses, OKRP and Barkley.
Mergers are a forcing function for open-mindedness. And for doing things differently.
“We're talking about putting what we're calling Creative Council together. That would be leadership from different offices, the core creative leaders, to help create what we're going to call the architecture of creativity. Defining, first of all, what is great from a BarkleyOKRP standpoint. That there is some sort of evaluation process that we go through collectively to be able to say, this is where we're hitting it, this is where we're not.” — Tom O’Keefe
The ability to accept the need to do things differently, to truly change perspectives, is a never ending leadership challenge.
In my experience, you have to be pretty clear about your own point of view in order to embrace new ones.
Worry too much about providing strong leadership, and the temptation to stick to our beliefs — even in the face of evidence or views to the contrary — becomes almost like a drug. An addiction to being right or first or better.
This is perhaps the most damaging characteristic that any leader can possess. And too much of it will ensure you’re not a leader of very many or very much for very long.
When we are clear about why we think what we think, when we are free of insecurity or hubris or ego, then we can assess an alternative path with an open mind.
Mergers provoke the need to lead through this lens. Tom’s outline for unleashing the creative potential of the newly formed business is filled with best practice.
But regardless of external forcing functions — like mergers — being clear about why we think what we think is table stakes for the most fearless leaders.
So what do you think? And what will it take for you to see things from a different perspective?
Here are Tom O’Keefe and Jeff King.
Charles (02:29):
Jeff, Tom, welcome to Fearless. Thank you both for coming on the show.
Jeff King (02:33):
Thanks for having us.
Tom O'Keefe (02:34):
Thanks, Charles.
Charles (02:36):
So you guys had a big announcement a couple of weeks ago. You are merging two established businesses. Tell us why you've decided to do that.
Jeff King (02:46):
I mean, it's, I think, for us, it was just a very opportunistic thing. We got introduced to Tom and Nick. We had been admirers of the business that they'd built, and when the opportunity came up, we felt like, I know it's very cliche to say, one and one make three, but we felt like in this case that was absolutely the case. They have built an absolute creative powerhouse, and where they were going with their business required a broader set of services. We have built an incredible independent agency at scale, that has very broad capabilities, a very good creative product, and we felt like bringing the two together. I think really our strength, in addition to creativity, is strategy and a way of working with clients. Bringing the creative magic of OKRP into that, the combined force we think is gonna be incredibly powerful.
Charles (03:45):
Tom, what was your feeling?
Tom O'Keefe (03:47):
I mean, well said, Jeff. I mean, we've always sort of run on instinct, and I think our instincts were telling us this was the right thing at the right time. We had just finished our 11th year, as OKRP and it's been a great run. And like everything, you start to at some point feel like, well, what's next? Because you're challenged by the challenges, and what else could be out there? And so we talk a lot about, we were running sort of that same lap, year after year. And as exciting as those laps can be, at some point, you're still going around the same circle. So the idea of getting together with somebody else that was like-minded, we share a lot of the same core values, and feeling like we together could go to someplace new, was super tempting. And meeting Jeff and Dan and the team at Barkley, Nick and I, and the rest of our leadership as we got to know them, just felt like this makes sense. It makes sense for what is our similarities in that Midwestern sort of values, it also makes sense because we're not the same, and we can each learn from the other as we move forward to build something that's even more great.
Charles (05:04):
Tom, I'm curious how much of this, maybe you haven't thought about it through this lens. How much of this for you was about expanding the business opportunity, and how much was this about you wanting to discover what you were capable of?
Tom O'Keefe (05:18):
That's a great question. I mean, I think it is both. I think on the surface it's the former, you know, on the surface it's about the great capabilities, and being able to introduce the clients that we have, or being able to go with new client prospects and talk about this portfolio of capabilities. But I think the emotional part of the latter of, what can we do? What are we capable of, working together, and what are those challenges that make it exciting to get up in the morning and to be able to work together? That's the thing, maybe, that is even more of the incentive ultimately, as we get into it. And I would say with Jeff, that's probably been the case. You know, we don't talk about capabilities now. We talk about, what are the opportunities as a brand for BarkleyOKRP, and where can we go, and how can we lead? And the capabilities and all the things that we do come along with that.
Jeff King (06:14):
I hadn't thought about it in those terms, Charles, but I think that's a really interesting way to put it. For me personally, just in my own day to day, I feel more energized than I’ve felt in years. Tom described it as maybe running the same laps. I think this business is definitely a grind. You work really hard every single day to retain clients, to do great work for those clients, to pitch new business. And that's a cycle. I think that bringing the two companies together, we're still doing all those things at a high level, but we're also thinking about the business from a development, how do we develop our business and our brand, and how do we create a powerful new culture by bringing really powerful cultures together? And all of those strategic exercises are fun, invigorating, and it's kind of like having a new job for the first time in 15 years, in some ways, and it's kind of cool.
Charles (07:16):
How were you guys connected? How were you actually put together?
Jeff King (07:19):
We got connected through a private equity firm in Chicago called Keystone. And they're a player in the bringing of us together in terms of investment.
Charles (07:29):
Were you both actively looking? Was this something that you were both seeking?
Tom O'Keefe (07:34):
We were not. We were not looking, I think we were feeling like we were, somewhere in the back of our minds, looking for the next thing. But it was not an active, like, we didn't go through a process.
Jeff King (07:47):
On the Barkley side, we were a little bit more intentional. We had gone through a process last year of looking at outside investors for the organization, to scale the business. What we discovered as we got to the tail end of that process, we evaluated dozens and dozens of potential investors, different types of private equity investors, et cetera. And Keystone really stood apart from that group. And what we discovered towards the end of the due diligence was that Keystone also had a relationship with OKRP. And so while it sequentially happened where we took on Keystone as an investor, and then OKRP came in, it was planned all along that the investment would be the two of us coming together. And so that was one of the reasons we were attracted to the Keystone opportunity, was because of the OKRP piece and us coming together. Keystone, actually, the truth is — nobody really knew at the time — but the truth is, Tom and Nick and my partner, Dan and I, were introduced well before Barkley did the Keystone deal, and had this in mind all along.
Tom O'Keefe (08:58):
Yeah, those guys were plotting. We didn't realize we were part of the plot. (laughs)
Charles (09:04):
Tom, you're a big presence, right, when you walk in the room, and you've had 11 years working in an environment that you've created and cultivated. What's the dynamic for you now as you start to build this new kind of partnership with people that you've known a little bit, but not intimately and not well? How is that dynamic playing out for you?
Tom O'Keefe (09:24):
I mean, it's been rewarding, really has been, Charles, and I mean, I speak in terms of, it’s only been a month or two. But, I think, this whole, this job, you know, of being a creative and being a leadership is a learning process. And, you know, I feel like at the same time, so I'm learning at the same time, the things that I have been able to pick up over my career, I feel really great about now having a whole new kind of opportunity to instill some of that into the Barkley culture from a creative standpoint. At the same time, meet new people, you know, this is a business about talent, and so all of a sudden there's this much more talent that we can work with together.
And so, I think it's about trying to hold onto what I believe is the core of great creative or being a creative. Bring that without overwhelming what's already been working at Barkley and in Kansas City. And the hopes being that ultimately it is about the product and the work, and that we can elevate that together. But doing it in a way that is mindful and brings people along and can inspire people and not make it feel like…. Because hey, if I, you know, if I'm somebody from Kansas City and Barkley, and they've got a terrific chief creative officer, Katie Hornaday, they didn't ask for me to come in, so, how do I do this in a way where they actually feel this is a great thing and a benefit, and they can see that it's going to help them in the long run, probably long after I'm gone? That's really been the opportunity and that's been the reward so far in working with the team.
Charles (11:13):
How quickly did you guys figure out roles? Because that's always one of the big sticking points, isn't it, in a conversation like this, especially when you've got two well-established partnerships that have been successful on their own rights. Jeff, obviously you've been the CEO of Barkley, you've also had a long-term partner, you and Dan have been partners for, what, 25, 26 years or something like that? So how did you guys navigate who's going to do what in this dynamic? And how quickly did that come together?
Jeff King (11:38):
Honestly, the first step was the four of us sat down in a conference room before we got very far in the deal at all. We talked very, very openly and specifically about what the four of us feel like we're good at in the business, where we feel like we get energy, where we like we can contribute. Dan and I have had a long strong partnership, so Tom and Nick. So it's been interesting bringing the four of us together. I think there's two things that, so far, are making it work really well.
One is, we did define roles so we each know we we're doing what area of the organization we can best impact. And the other is, we have a group of people who are, I think, I'll say this about Tom and certainly Nick. They're incredibly confident gentlemen who have a strong point of view, but they're highly emotionally intelligent and empathetic. And so, we had a four hour session yesterday, for example, with the four of us, going through all the laundry list of things you can imagine in terms of putting the companies together, from little things of title structure, to email signatures to, you know, big things like cultural rituals and things like that. And when you bring two cultures together, it requires selflessness, it requires compromise, and it requires a focus on what's going to be the strongest thing moving forward, versus holding onto something from the past just because you feel emotional about it. And I think that's worked quite well. The other thing I'll say is, I think there's a good mix of personality types. My… I know myself, my tendency, I have an incredibly high sense of urgency. I like to keep things moving quickly. Tom is more thoughtful. And when we've come together on key decisions, the balance of those two things, I think have helped keep things moving, but we've paused, we've done it the right way, and it seems to be working really well.
Charles (13:44):
Tom, what do you think are the big risks? What are you seeing as might get in the way of this being successful?
Tom O'Keefe (13:49):
I think, you know, you talk about culture, I think that. Making sure that the culture of the new culture feels like it's welcoming and exciting to everybody. And so we have a lot of conversations about managing that in a way that doesn't feel like we're trying to over control it either, because culture is one of those things where it's like, if it works, you ride it, you're not controlling it. But I think we are aware of the importance of establishing a culture right out of the bat. I mean, I think, if you had a chance to see sort of that launch video that we did where we said, “Hey, we merged and nobody cares,” was a really good sort of unifying way of us saying, you know, we're not going to take this so seriously that you're going to feel like you've been taken over by the corporate entity.
This is still about having fun and creating a culture that invites creativity. And I think that got us off on the right foot. We continue to look at closely how we manage this, so that this culture, which will be a new culture overall, feels like it's a great thing for everybody involved. Because as you brought up, Charles, I mean, the watch-out with mergers, with acquisitions, is that the first thing that gets scrubbed is the culture. I had been through a couple, one in particular where I know what that's like. And this is something that we are very conscious about, making sure people feel great about being part of this.
Charles (15:23):
I mean, culture is built on values, right? So how are you combining wrestling with the fact that you've got two companies that had maybe overlapping, but nevertheless distinctive values?
Jeff King (15:33):
I think, you know, while there were differences in culture and rituals and, you know, lots of different things, the place we were most similar was in our core values. I mean, even the exercise of looking at our written and articulated core values next to OKRP’s, there was alignment, which gave us a lot of confidence because I felt like foundationally we’re very aligned. All the things that grow from that foundation, I think are the things that are malleable moving forward.
Tom O'Keefe (16:06):
I mean, I think like the idea, we got together quickly on the, it's not about us, you know, it's about our clients and it's about the consumers that they serve, and to make that a strong point, that we all agreed to instantly when we got together, that felt like, okay, we're heading, if it's between north, south, east, and west, we're all going at least in that main direction together. And then we'll figure out the rest. OKRP when we started it, we put a foundation together from the beginning and then we let it be, you know, and like I said, you ride it, you don't try to control it. And I think we're still working on what are the core values that we feel will be the combined new entity, the idea of being “big indie”, which is what we went out with, what does that mean, you know, what does that feel like to show up as that, and get people who are part of our culture to be able to feel that and carry it on in their own way.
Charles (17:04):
Are you going to move people around from office to office? Will that be part of the opportunity?
Jeff King (17:10):
I mean, it's an opportunity if people choose, you know, personally to move. But we're not proactively moving anybody. We're definitely spending time with each other on projects that we're starting to work on, in an integrated way between the two offices. We have folks traveling both ways. We had our first combined pitch last week. That was the first time we pitched under the BarkleyOKRP umbrella. We had representatives from both offices, got really good feedback from the client. It was interesting that the client asked a question at the end of that presentation of how the integration was going and if we felt like the integration would be a distraction with all, as they would be potentially onboarding as a client. And Nick, who was in the room, said, “Well, we have folks from both sides of the business here today. Could you tell who was from what company?” And they said, “No, it felt very seamless.” He's like, “Well, there you go.” So we can't announce yet who it is, but we did win that piece of business.
Charles (18:11):
Nothing like having a proof point early on in a merger, right, to demonstrate that this actually works. Have you had any resistance internally? Have you had any pushback at all?
Tom O'Keefe (18:22):
I mean, I think when we initially talked about doing this, people were… they had questions, and you would expect that to be the case. And I think the overall sort of headline made sense to just about everybody. I think everybody also had the, what does it mean specifically for me, as again, we would expect. And we were pretty honest in saying, you know, go into this open-minded, be optimistic, but also be realistic and, you know, watch how it plays out. And I think the good news so far is, as people are watching this play out, they're feeling that it can be successful and it can be successful for them, you know? And it is the bigger things that are doing that, it is the sort of impact of the launch. It is the fact we're winning new business. The fact that the work feels like it's working, I think is what's also being looked at as why this is working. Not the details of the integration, not the fact that we had issues with our email transferring over and things like that. Those are going to be part of the little hiccups along the way. The bigger stuff is jelling.
Jeff King (19:40):
Yeah, I would agree. I would say, you know, it was interesting from the OKRP side, they were hearing a lot of new news at once. On the Barkley side, we had announced that we were taking on the partnership with Keystone last fall. And so all of our messaging internally since then has been preparing people for the fact that, because of that partnership, we were going to be acquisitive. There would be M and A activity happening in 2024, and that people should be prepared to embrace that change. So when we announced it on our side, it was certainly a big deal in terms of the merger and the announcement and the brand and everything, but people were fully expecting it, and it was not the least bit disruptive. I think everybody was ready.
Charles (20:31):
Both of these companies have been successful by espousing the value of creativity as a business driver, right? You've both talked about that separately and together. Jeff, what was it like, given that focus, what was it like for you to step back from the creative leadership of the business and cede that to Tom, who's become the Creative Chairman, I think is the title, right? Did you have a moment of personal hesitation in relinquishing that responsibility?
Jeff King (20:57):
Not the least bit. I mean, my background in the business is on the account side. I've always, I feel like my skill has always been on running the business, on client relationships, more in strategy. I've always been quite deferential on the creative side to Katie, most recently our Chief Creative Officer, and using her as a great partner. So bringing Tom into the mix obviously hit. When we sat down to define roles, as we talked about earlier, Tom’s was the clearest from the very beginning and he and Katie are partnering really well. And I was happy to have a partner like Tom and Katie to oversee that part of the business.
Charles (21:40):
Tom, I'm interested, from your standpoint, taking over a creative department that's as large as the one that Barkley has and suddenly having responsibility for multiple locations is a challenge that a number of people have faced. I was talking to Anselma Ramos a couple of weeks ago, who's the founder of GUT, and he was describing how GUT had become so successful so quickly, and he described a process that is really a codification of creative excellence, of creative standards. Susan Credle at FCB has talked publicly about the 4, 5, 6 scale that she's put in place, which allows multiple offices to come together, driving the same standard, without one person thinking that they have to look at every piece of work. Have you given thought to how do you bring creative excellence to multiple locations at the same time?
Tom O'Keefe (22:28):
I have given thought to it. That is a work in progress, to be absolutely honest with you, but those are exactly the things that we are looking to be able to get to. We're talking about putting what we're calling Creative Council together. That would be leadership from different offices, the core creative leaders, to help create what we're going to call the architecture of creativity. Defining what is great for us? What is great from a BarkleyOKRP standpoint. Understanding there's an A, there's a B, there's a C in terms of priorities and making sure that our focus is on the A's and the B's, and where those opportunities are. That there is some sort of evaluation process that we go through collectively to be able to say, this is where we're hitting it, this is where we're not. To have a really good assessment of the talent, both that we have internally as well as talent that we hope that we can bring into our network.
So, and I'll be really honest with you, Charles, that's not OKRP, because we were all here together. And so that was sort of all happening rather organically. The need now is to add a structure to that and a process to that, I believe, in order for us to be able to get to greatness across multiple offices. I do really cherish the opportunity of focusing on creative. You know, the idea of a creative chairman to me is sparked instantly, at this point in my career, to be able to go, okay, now I'm really am going to be about the creative and I'm going to be held responsible for the creative, and I'm going to take that very seriously. And be, you know, these are what I believe to be what makes things great. I want to keep it very simple and very high in terms of level, and also involve those who are sort of that next generation of leadership to be able to feel ownership in creating what will be the BarkleyOKRP School of Creative. And that's something that we're looking to do. It's something we're looking to do relatively quickly. And I'm excited about it because I think we can do it. I feel it.
Charles (24:43):
Jeff, both of you have mentioned the idea of, of the “Big Indies”. Why do you think that's a competitive advantage?
Jeff King (24:50):
I think when you look at the agency landscape as a whole, there are a lot of holding company agencies that offer scale. There are a lot of boutique independence that offer great creativity. I'm obviously oversimplifying in terms of what they offer, but that space in the middle of, you know, all the advantages of an independent agency — the creativity, the nimbleness, the senior involvement in the business, the integration under one P and L, which I think is key — that's hard to find at scale. If you bifurcate the industry into HoldCos and independents, how many independents are there truly at scale, at 500 people to a thousand people with broad capabilities? There just aren't very many. And so we think that there's this market opportunity. When you think about the client set out there that need the sophistication, the technology infrastructure, the media chops, et cetera, of a HoldCo agency with all the advantages that I just mentioned from an independent side, we feel like that's where the advantage. So as we're building out our capabilities set, and we're not done acquiring, we're not done building our capabilities across the spectrum, as we build those, we're being incredibly thoughtful that we will not pull anything into the organization that we hold as a holding company. We will be one brand, BarkleyOKRP, we will have one P & L. We will have one integrated offering. And that will be the difference.
Tom O'Keefe (26:32):
I also think it's important when you talk about “Big Indie”, to acknowledge that there's a sort of an emotional feeling to that, you know, I think we like that there's a, it says sort of how we should present ourselves and carry ourselves. And, you know, there's this, that “Big Indie” spirit, you think in terms of inspiration from movie studios and record labels where they don't want to lose what made them entrepreneurial and, you know, and creative in the first place. But that it's okay for us to bring the bigness because that's the truth. And the fact that there's tension in those two sort of does create this energy of a way of how we carry ourselves, you know, as a flag and not just a, well, it makes sense when you look at the position. And Jeff's been great. Jeff's got this Venn diagram that's sold us all on, here's the opportunity in between. That's the on paper rational definition of “Big Indie”, the emotional carry ourselves, act like “Big Indie”, that's what keeps it exciting.
Charles (27:40):
What do you see as the opportunity that AI offers in terms of how you want to grow this business? Because obviously that's a major, major player. I think a lot of people feel like this is going to not just change the industry, but revolutionize the industry, that in many ways, two years from now, three years from now, we probably won't recognize the industry compared to what it looks like today. What role does AI play for you guys in terms of how you're going to grow this?
Jeff King (28:05):
I mean, we're experimenting in all areas of the business. So we have champions and creatives that are obviously utilizing all the tools that are available to us now to enhance efficiency and ideas, et cetera. On the technology data, media sides, you know, we have champions looking at all the opportunities to be more efficient. And we're also, from an investment and acquisition standpoint, keeping that very much at the forefront of how we evolve the business moving forward. So, obviously, point of view on AI could be a whole podcast unto itself. But I would say right now, we have a strong culture around experimentation, of embracing all the technologies available to us, of enhancing and customizing those technologies for the use of our specific disciplines against our clients. And we'll just continue to evolve with it. I think that just like every technological evolution we've gone through in our respective careers, fear is not your friend. Embracing, experimenting, and not overreacting at the same time I think are really important.
Tom O'Keefe (29:14):
Yeah, I mean, obviously we're going to work with it, because I think from a creative standpoint, that's where it can be the most daunting. But I look at it like, you know, it is a tool that can help us get to our, whatever it is that's in our heads, the, “Is this possible?” can help us get to it better and faster. You know, when I started my career, if you had an idea, you would go to Borders bookstore, get some books and maybe some CDs, and you would feed your muse through that, you know, and get your inspiration. And then the internet came, and then you had all this stuff at your fingertips that was also feeding, whatever that spark was, or whatever the basic idea that you were trying to bring to life is.
And I think AI at its essence, can represent sort of that next generation of the tool that helps us. Now, it's changing exponentially, much faster than the previous technologies. So we do have to keep an eye on where it goes and how it affects creative. Ultimately, we don't want it to be the replacement for creativity. We want it to be the thing that helps us realize, what is inside of us that cannot be replaced by algorithms at this point. We can feel the difference between something that it is a human idea, human touch, and something that has been created by the machine. We see that right now in, you know, you're hearing what they're doing with music. You're seeing what's happening with Sora. But it's still lacks that human touch that is what connects people with your idea.
Charles (30:58):
Do you think it makes human creativity more valuable, in fact? That if, as the line gets moved, to your point, about what technology can do, that the feels to me that the value proposition of the human component of that, or the human piece of that becomes more valuable. And in an industry that is actually terrible at valuing creativity, we sell it by the hour, how ludicrous is that? How ludicrous is that? So I'm wondering whether it actually moves the needle on people recognizing that true original human thinking is actually the most valuable business driver we can provide, and therefore, let's structure businesses on that basis. Does that resonate?
Tom O'Keefe (31:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's what we have to go for and go for. I mean, I think that there's potential for the next big creative breakthrough to come out of the combination of what AI and the human interaction with it or the inspiration that we have, that that combination creates something that would never have been created without it. Like, that's the hope, right? I think we're all feeling like, what's the next big thing, from a creative standpoint, what's the next renaissance of creativity? Will it come from technology working with us? That would be the hope. But if you follow what's going on in Hollywood especially, there's also the fear that it's, you know, the thing that's going to eat us up. So to Jeff's point, you’ve got to stay positive and work with it, and hopefully something great will come from it.
Jeff King (32:34):
I've always believed that if you go, as much as our industry has changed, if you go back 150 years, the core essence of what our business was about when it first started, to me, was human insight, starts with human insights that lead to some sort of strategic foundation that leads to big creative breakthrough ideas. That essence of our business really has never changed. Everything around it, how we deliver those messages, how we comp those ideas, everything around it changes. But the core essence, to me, of the value our industry provides, has never changed, and I think we need to continue to stay focused on that, and that's very human-centric.
Charles (33:23):
I'm always interested when you put a business together by intention as the four of you have, the extent to which you look beyond the dynamics that are required to make something like this happen, and look forward and say, okay, we're going to be really clear about defining what success looks like five years from now, what would success be for this company?
Tom O'Keefe (33:45):
I think it'll be in the work. I think it'll be that we got together, that we believed in a certain way of working, that we had this “Big Indie” inspiration and that ultimately it comes out in the work in a way that you can point to. I mean, I think if you look at any successful agency over the course of history, the thing that makes them, that stands out at the end is the work that they did. So if we're going to be able to say, we got together and we were successful, it will be the work that shows it, and everything else will fall into place as a result. It won't be about the story of the merge. It won't be about the capabilities and all that. It will be about this great work, which is exciting. It's also the challenge that we stay focused on.
Jeff King (34:40):
Yeah. We've never had a size goal that we want to get X big or have X billings. That's never been a conversation that we've had. I think it's been about the quality of the agency and the legacy that we leave. The one thing I would add to what Tom said is, I think five years from now, you'll also see a very diverse leadership team of the agency, that is the next evolution of our company taking over. I'm not announcing our retirement, but I do know that over the next five years, we will be fading into the background more as our next generation of leadership really steps forward. And that's already happening.
Charles (35:28):
And as you look to the future, what are you each afraid of?
Jeff King (35:36):
That's a great question. I mean, I think one of the things that has always driven me in this business is somewhat fear of failure. I think bringing the two businesses together, I think there are more examples of mergers in our industry that haven't worked. So, you know, making the decision to bring the two great companies together, I think if something were to happen that would make, make the combined entity weaker than the strength the two were individually, that would suck. I don't believe that will happen, but I think that would be the biggest fear, would be to be the small group of people who made the decision to do that. Something will have to go wrong massively for that to happen. So I feel pretty confident.
Tom O'Keefe (36:28):
I would say complacency. You know, I would say that the just getting by and that's okay, that can permeate as you get larger is the thing we’ve got to fight against. That we can, we have to continue. And this is again, why I go back to the “Big Indie” and why I like about it. We have to continue to have a spirited approach to how we work together and the work that we do, and not let what can settle in the middle and is what a lot of people get by with, be the thing that takes over.
Charles (37:04):
I want to thank you both for joining me today. Mergers, as you just said, Jeff, and certainly I had this experience, as well, in my own business, both the most exciting and the most challenging of business dynamics. And I think they work when they're grounded on people who have common ethos in companies that have overlapping cultures. And it feels like, from here anyway, that you guys have got a really good start on that. And I wish you nothing but the best. It's going to be really interesting to see how you take this forward and in the face of an industry that's changing rapidly. Thank you both.
Jeff King: (37:34):
Thank you. Appreciate the conversation.
Tom O'Keefe (37:37):
Great speaking with you. Thank you.
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