Leading In The Time Of Virus
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 208: Greg Hahn
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies, coaching their leaders to maximize their impact.
This episode is our eighth of Season 2 - which we’ve sub-titled, “Leading In The Time Of Virus”.
In these conversations we discover how some of the world’s most innovative and creative leaders are adapting their leadership to our new reality.
These people are among the world’s best problem solvers.
This episode is a conversation with Greg Hahn, until recently the Creative Vice Chairman of BBDO Worldwide, and the Chief Creative Officer of BBDO New York.
A few days ago, Greg was let go by BBDO. He is not the first leader to lose their job as a result of the pandemic, and he will not be the last. Within the advertising world, however, this was a significant moment as the industry struggles to redefine itself.
Greg talked about the shock of getting fired, about how he unlocks creativity in others and about how he’s looking at the future.
Here’s Greg Hahn.
Charles: (01:06)
Greg, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Greg Hahn: (01:09)
Well, thank you for having me.
Charles: (01:11)
Tell us where you are quarantining, locked down, and who you are with.
Greg Hahn: (01:16)
I'm in Brooklyn, New York with my wife Mandy, my cats Jango and Sugar, my dog Penny, and my 10-year-old daughter Tuesday.
Charles: (01:26)
Oh, how's she doing?
Greg Hahn: (01:28)
She's doing good. I mean, it's getting long for her. I think that at first it was kind of a novelty, but now she's getting ... She's ready to go back to school, believe it or not.
Charles: (01:39)
Yeah. I can imagine that's true in a lot of households, and I'm sure a lot of parents are ready for their kids to get back to school as well.
Greg Hahn: (01:44)
Yeah, it's been an education for all of us.
Charles: (01:48)
How are you doing after the events of last week?
Greg Hahn: (01:51)
I'm actually doing okay. I think this whole thing has been such a weird eye-opening experience for me. I've heard from so many great people, and there's so much opportunity out there. I think advertising in general is going through such a shakeup, and when it comes out of this, it's going to be different. I really am looking forward to being one of the people that figures out what rises from these ashes, because I think it's going to be exciting. I'm actually looking forward to this. It's a forced change, I didn't see it coming. But maybe that's a good thing, maybe I would have avoided it if I did see it coming. I would have probably resisted change, but now I have no choice.
Charles: (02:30)
What were you dealing with right up until the time that you were let go? What was the mood? What was your approach?
Greg Hahn: (02:39)
It was hard. That's been my biggest eye-opening thing since I've had this week off or whatever to step away from [inaudible]. It's just while you're in it, you don't realize it as much. But when you step back [inaudible] advertising over the last year or so has just been really hard. I think we've lost a little bit of the joy, and I kind of want to bring that back. I think if you look back at the days, it's just like the economy, even when it was supposedly good, was hard on agencies, and it was a battle every day to keep your head above water. I think we need to rethink the way we do that.
I feel like BBDO, we did a great job of still keeping the work good and keeping that the center of attention. But it's really hard. It shouldn't be that difficult. We should all be on the same page. We should all be wanting the same thing. But I think science has taken a little bit of the joy out of it. So again, when this all passes, it's time for a restart.
Charles: (03:43)
As you're looking forward, both personally and professionally, what has become important to you in the last eight days to start to think about? What kind of future do you want to build for yourself?
Greg Hahn: (03:55)
I think it should be much more streamlined. I think that's another thing we've learned during this process. Because I was at BBDO working long distance for three weeks, and we got a lot done. It was very efficient. So I think we're kind of understanding what work will be like in the future, which is maybe you don't need that much real estate. Maybe you don't need that many people involved. I'm looking forward to working directly with creators and clients and just making stuff. We don't need that much processes. You've seen stuff getting made in two days. Granted, it all started to look the same after a while, because we're all working off the same brief. But I think that we'll learn some stuff that will be exciting and be able to be applied that we wouldn't have had encountered before.
Charles: (04:42)
Yeah, for sure. I'm sure that's true. Emotionally, I'm imagining the last few days have been kind of a roller coaster for you.
Greg Hahn: (04:47)
Yeah. To say the least. First, I went through all the stages of grief. Shock was the overriding for quite some time. But again, just talking to people and I've just realized that there are so many opportunities out there and so much that needs to be done and created. There's people that are hungry for something new. So I want to be again, I want to figure that out. I actually am turning my attention more towards what's next versus the last 15 years, which have been great by the way. And I still have great friends, David and I are close. These are weird times, unprecedented. It's the same economy that took down airlines and hotels. So you can imagine the least of the impacts.
Charles: (05:40)
Did it shake your confidence? What's your own emotional journey been over the last few days?
Greg Hahn: (05:48)
I've walked in the office every day since I was a junior thinking this is going to be the day I'm fired. So I've never been an overly cocky person that way. Everybody's vulnerable. It hasn't really shaken my con... If this was out of the blue in the middle of the normal economy, yes, that would totally throw my confidence. But we cut a hundred people that day, Dave Rolfe, senior executive producer, this was nothing to do with talent.
Charles: (06:16)
From a leadership standpoint, and the leadership role that you had, which was obviously significant, What was your mindset? What was your orientation in terms of making long term decisions? How would you typically make decisions in terms of building businesses over the long run?
Greg Hahn: (06:30)
Well we always start with, what's the problem we're trying to solve. You don't start with the media even. I think clients got into a very... are still into a very short term focus right now. Again, it's like a little bit science creeping into it too much, which is results. Everything is direct response these days. I think during this crisis, clients had to step back from that a little bit and just invest in actions and figure out who they are and what value they actually bring to the world. So again, that maybe has a great effect after this is. It's like, let's think about what we actually do for the people, and not trying to bombard them with quick messages every application they're on.
Charles: (07:20)
Talk to me about your own personal leadership philosophy. Moving aside the BBDO dynamic of the last few days. But what's your leadership philosophy? How do you go about unlocking creative talents in other people?
Greg Hahn: (07:34)
People say I'm fairly hands-on. I like to build ideas. I like to have people bring me stuff that they're not even sure about. I don't want... I think fear and insecurity are a block to creativities and we're all built with that... most creatives have that in their genes.
So just creating an open space. I think what I tried to do at BBDO is just set a standard, set a bar. We hire the kind of people who are harder on themselves. I'm not a taskmaster, I'm not someone who they're afraid to show something to. That usually comes with the territory that they bring into the room. I don't ever yell at anybody or make them feel bad for bringing something. Usually what I like to do is take a step back if they don't have anything that we're really digging, is just take a step back and go, let's look at the brief. What's the actual problem we're trying to solve? Because again, it's usually if something's not there creatively, it's usually not the execution or the idea. It's, they don't really understand what they're trying to say or what they're trying to communicate.
So, I try not to make it personal because I know how it is to put something on the table and have people judge that. It can't help but feel personal. So again, it's a matter of hiring the right people that are self-driven and understand what great work is and won't rest until they get it out. I don't have to make them do that, I don't make them feel guilty. They can do it wherever they want, whenever they want.
Charles: (09:08)
As you mentioned, obviously fear is a huge killer of creative thinking. How do you go about marrying the needs of a business dynamic where you're trying to drive towards results and towards the bottom line and there's fear attached to that. If that doesn't happen, how do you marry the need for that with the need to create an environment which people can take risks, in which they're encouraged to push their thinking to places that no one's thought of before?
Greg Hahn: (9:34)
Well, I think there's a number of ways to do it. One way is, if you're with a client that is afraid of doing something "brave," because that word is inappropriate I think in this case. But you walk them through, you tell them why this approach is right. But I think an even more helpful thing is you always show them what they think they want. You don't just go ignoring their interests or what they've asked you to do. Go in with a safe one. A lot of times they'll go with that one. But more often than not, you'll end up in a more interesting place and it'll put everyone's mind to rest. What I have found is if you try to push an execution on a client that's nervous, it will always come back to… in some way that will not go well. They'll either try to change it to a point to where it doesn't make anybody happy, or they'll buy it in the room and it will come back and not be... end up being something you'll never do.
So it's a partnership with them. And understanding also that in this environment, I've always said this, or at least over the last few years, is that safe is the new risky because you see so much stuff. When you remember Burger King, the stuff that stands out, the stuff that took chances and that's being rewarded. If you look at what Wieden does, their whole business models is being out there. It's not taking the expected route and they're one of the few agencies where clients are just coming to them and asking for help. They're not pitching that much.
Charles: (11:11)
The dynamics of working from home are going to be with us for some time in some form I think. I don't think we're going back to a situation or an environment in which people are desperate to hang out in close quarters for quite some time. So based on what you've already experienced over the last four or five weeks and what you now see going forward with this, as you said, the freedom to think about anything you want in fact and to create a future that works for you. What do you think coming out of this is going to be important for creative businesses to incorporate? How much of working from home will be... How much of that do you think will be part of the kind of businesses going forward?
Greg Hahn: (11:51)
I think it opens up a lot of possibilities for satellite agencies and things like that. One thing though that we have to keep in mind is it's a different circumstance than... we're in a different circumstance now than we will be when we return to work. Because what works with this is that everybody's home and everyone has to do it. What you miss out by doing part some people at home, some people away, are the conversations that happen after the meeting and the hallway interactions that some people are having, other people aren't. So I think we have to figure that out, whether it's the office has mandatory three day in the office and two days off, or something like that, but I think we're going to be in for a little bit of an awakening when we understand that it's a different situation when some people are in the office and a few people aren't. So that's something I believe we have to figure out.
When I worked at Fallon they had a Minneapolis office, obviously, that was the home space. But the last few years there I worked out of a small satellite office in LA and there were about five or six creatives there and it was a cool space. But we're just basically an arm of the Minneapolis office and my partner was still in Minneapolis. So that worked out really well for us because he was able to be in the rooms and read the faces in the meetings while we were presenting. Also working long distance is very different for creatives than it is working in the same room. I think we found a way to beat that and actually I would... anybody with kids watching their kids on video screens and their Zoom conferences watch the way they act, because you'll notice they don't feel the need to fill every space with thought.
There's a lot of empty space and they play and they just do their own thing. And sometimes I've been saying, I'll walk by my daughter's screen and there's just an empty couch in someone else's living room. They just leave it on and they come back to it as if they're in the same room and they're not playing to the camera, they're just... it's there. So if you're concepting I think that's a good way to work, is just put the camera on, set it aside, and then just pretend that you're in the same room. Don't stare into the camera and feel like you have to constantly keep it going.
Charles: (14:11)
I was talking to Nils Leonard a couple of weeks ago and he made the point that he had already seen it at that point I guess four weeks into this, that having a little solitude and space had actually been really good for their quality of thinking that was coming up [crosstalk]. They felt like that, to your point, the peacefulness that people were able to find, and the solitude people were able to find, allow them to actually push their thinking even further. Have you felt some of that?
Greg Hahn: (14:35)
Yeah, always the best ideas come... I usually find for myself as a creative, you spend a few intense hours, whatever, in the room bashing ideas around and then you'll take a 10 minute break walk and then you'll come back energized with the idea. I use the in the room as sort of the chemistry set that you use to put in your head and then you walk away and just let it create some new element, so to speak.
Charles: (15:07)
How are you spending your time now? Because obviously without the structure of a company around you...
Greg Hahn: (15:12)
It's been crazy, because I'm paranoid and, "What's next?" kind of thing. I can't relax. So I've been on the phone with so many different people and clients and then just people I know in industry who have reached out to me or want to advise me. It's been great. Honestly, I've been on the phone more now than I was just right before this started. It's pretty intense. I'm kind of sick of myself right now. I'm done talking about myself.
Charles: (15:45)
Are you good at taking advice?
Greg Hahn: (15:48)
Yeah, I think so. Especially from smart people and I trust. The people I'm talking to are that. They've done this before. These are founders of agencies and heads of departments and things like that. And I've also... looking outside the world of advertising agencies to platforms and some people that... all the big tech companies. That's been eye-opening and there's some opportunities there that I never really would've thought about before.
Charles: (16:18)
What have you found out about yourself?
Greg Hahn: (16:21)
A lot. Probably that maybe I'm a little more resilient than I probably would've thought. I don't know, it's been such a whirlwind. I think maybe that I am way too... I get into too much of a habit and a routine, so this has actually been kind of good for me. I usually like to know what's happening. Now I feel energized by the fact that I don't. So yeah, I feel awakened in that sense of like, "Okay, we're all in this situation where the world is kind of turned upside down. It's not just me that lost my job. There's a lot of people." So I'm trying not to take this personally. I'm trying to focus on what's the outcome that we could never have seen coming that will actually be better for us all.
Charles: (17:18)
Nobody would ever wish somebody to lose their job, but there is a real power that comes from that period of self-reflection and determining what it is that really matters to you. What are you discovering really matters to you? What's the difference that you want to make?
Greg Hahn: (17:34)
I don't know if this is the big aha moment, but I just think we need to bring more fun back into the industry. More joy. I just hear from all these people. It seems like nobody's really happy in advertising and I don't think that should be. It didn't always used to be that way. I think we need to bring a little more... thinking just mischief. Let's have more fun. I don't know. It seems like it doesn't have to be this hard and that will be reflected in the work. As long as you have smart, strategical work and thinking, have fun with that. It doesn't have to be... Everything doesn't have to be so serious and everything doesn't have to be so life or death. I think at agencies we've become so ground down a little bit by fear that the client might leave or something like that, we can't free ourselves to just say, "What if?" It's been more of a defensive position in advertising across the board. Not speaking of BBDO, I'm speaking from what I've learned from talking to other people.
Charles: (18:45)
So as you look forward and start to plan what's next for you, what are the characteristics that you want to be part of that? What kind of energy, what kind of spirit are you looking for?
Greg Hahn: (18:57)
I want to build a team that knows why they're there and is energized by it, no matter what the task is. I heard somebody say this, I think it's a great way to look at what your job is. You can either be a bricklayer or you can be someone who builds cathedrals. And that's understanding what the bigger purpose is, why you go to work. It's to create stuff that people enjoy and to help clients solve hard problems. And that's cool. And your friends and your family back home, they get to see what you do for a living. And that's exciting to me. So I want to create a team that's all on the same mission. We just want to shake things up, want to have some fun like I keep saying. We want to do work that points the way. That's always been my mission at BBDO, is do work that points the way. So I'd like to continue that wherever I go, whatever I do. Or I've taken a little bit of the ego out about it. I don't need another award, maybe there's something else that I can do.
Charles: (19:58)
What are you afraid of as you sit here today?
Greg Hahn: (20:01)
Well, the future's uncertain and uncertainties never... [inaudible] back to a safe place, so that there's a little bit of fear of that. I don't know. I try not to focus on what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of snakes.
Charles: (20:21)
Me too. And last question for you, as you said, you're not the first person who's going to lose their job, and in this situation for sure you're certainly not the last. What advice, what support, what would you offer the people who are either worried about or have lost their job that you've learned from the experience so far?
Greg Hahn: (20:40)
I will say this, if you're worried about it, maybe the best thing that could happen to you is that it happens. I've spent so much time... Like I said, I've always had this paranoia of one day the economy's going to break and nobody's going to be able to... we're all going to lose our jobs and if we lose this client and... That wasn't even a realistic fear until it was. But just having that hanging over your head or working like you might get fired one day, which I think a lot of creatives do. I know one really great creative that worked at Wieden and one of my favorite writers in the world, said she never would put anything in her office because she was afraid she would have to pack up that day. And this is an A-list talented writer who has gone on to great success. But still, that's inborn I think, in every creative. So it's not as bad as you fear, and maybe forced change will bring on even better things.
Charles: (21:42)
Very well said.
Greg Hahn: (21:44)
I'll let you know on the other side of this. I don't know. I have to see how things play out. But I'm going to go into it with a positive attitude and let's make something good out of this.
Charles: (21:59)
I'm quite sure you will, and I wish you nothing but the best on that journey. I think you'll discover a lot about yourself that you'll be really gratified to learn about yourself.
Greg Hahn: (22:08)
Well, this has helped. A little bit of therapy.
Charles: (22:13)
Good. Greg, thanks so much for joining me and good luck on the journey.
Greg Hahn: (22:16)
Oh, thank you so much.
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