Leading In The Time Of Virus
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 209: Emma Cookson
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies, coaching their leaders to maximize their impact.
This episode is our ninth of Season 2 - which we’ve sub-titled, “Leading In The Time Of Virus”.
In these conversations we discover how some of the world’s most innovative and creative leaders are adapting their leadership to our new reality.
These people are among the world’s best problem solvers.
This episode is a conversation with Emma Cookson, a partner at You & Mr Jones which describes itself as the 'world's first Brandtech group' working to disrupt the world of traditional marketing and advertising.
Before that, Emma was the chairman of BBH New York.
She’s one of the clearest thinkers that I know.
Emma talked about the need to focus on the important, not just the urgent, about assigning different groups to look at distinctive time horizons, and about the opportunity to forge more respectful relationships.
Here’s Emma Cookson.
Charles: (1:07)
Emma, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks for coming back on the show.
Emma Cookson: (1:10)
It's a big pleasure. It's lovely to be back.
Charles: (1:12)
Tell me where you are in "lockdown". There's so much vernacular around this, isn't it? Lockdown, quarantine, social distancing. No, that's not right, it's physical distancing, socially connected. Anyway, where are you living and who are you living with?
Emma Cookson: (1:25)
I am locked down in North London, in the UK, and I am with family. Yeah, I'm with husband and two teenage daughters and small dog. So, yeah, you know Charles, having spent most of the last 20 years in New York, living and working in New York, 18 months ago I came back to London. So, that is where I am now. Now, socially isolated.
Charles: (1:51)
How has leadership changed for you in the last few weeks? What are you focusing more on now?
Emma Cookson: (1:58)
It's so interesting. I should probably clarify what I am leading, because it slightly has a bearing on how I answer it. So, my role, as you know, my sort of job, is as a partner at You & Mr Jones, which is a group of companies. So, a group of tech-enabled companies to do marketing. So, there, my leadership role, as I say, it goes across a group. There's 11 of us partners. But, by coincidence, I am also temporarily the acting CEO of one of the companies in the group because the company MOFILM, the North American President, and the Global CO, and the Fund Rights Director are all on maternity leave, simultaneously.
So, I agreed for six months to kind of provide some leadership cover. Obviously, this was positioned as really quite a light task, it's running smoothly. It had a good turn around. It really won't take much of your time. And, that was obviously not a particularly accurate predictor of the current circumstances. But anyway, so when you asked me what's happening in terms of leadership, there is a duality there because I think there is quite different being a contributing leader of a bigger entity, which is a multifaceted entity and then being the hands-on leader of a smaller company, which in particular, because it's a dispersed network model. The actual number of full-time employees is really relatively small at MOFILM.
So, they're both very different modes. And, in the MOFILM model, yeah, I think it's all about…I mean the cliches people say are true. Regular communication, empathy with the people you work with, being crystal clear about what your priorities are. All the stuff that is normal, good leadership, but just has got ratcheted up a few levels. In the wider group, there's an increasing value I think that accrues to systematic, orderly, well-thought-out leadership. Because, I mean obviously you need clarity and leadership at the best of times, but when things are so confused and so chaotic and you're a big scale as well, the priority of just having, well, having priorities, the importance of just having a really clear sense of what matters, what we're going to do, how and when. That simplification and clarity is even more critical.
Charles: (4:43)
One of the things that I've been struck by in the conversations I've been having over the last few weeks is how people are having to put on different hats. I mean, being a parent, being a teacher at home, a lot of people are dealing with obviously, you're a partner and a spouse. I mean relationships are being put under more scrutiny than ever being living with our loved ones 25 hours a day.
Being a business leader. Because you've got another one, to your point, you've got two different kinds of leadership that you're showing up. How do you navigate through those? Are you conscious in the moment of, "Oh, this is this mode and I have to put on this face," or "I have to bring these skills to the table,"? Are you conscious about that or is this instinctive for you as you move through these different modes?
Emma Cookson: (5:27)
I think it's just a bit different when again, they say leadership, how you lead successfully changes don't they, once you get to groups. It's whenever they get to groups of 70, I think that was the Malcolm Gladwell thing. Whenever you can't rely on an oral culture. There's a certain size above which you can't lead through human to human connection network and that can be virtual. So, it is different when I'm leading MOFILM, well first of all, because I'm, if you like currently the ultimate leader, I'm the acting CEO. So, that's a different role than being one of the partners. But, there that is, I mean it is literally, it's almost on an individual basis. It's like knowing all the individuals, what they need, where they're at, keeping in contact with them, making sure each one is clear. Have they've got any issues? What are they worried about? Where do they need support? You deal with it all quite individually.
At a group level obviously, that was completely impractical when you've got thousands of people and multiple companies. So, it is much more about working out, "Okay, where is it most useful to focus your time and your energy that will actually make a difference?" And, the real danger is just getting lost in the urgent as opposed to the important. I mean, as ever. I mean it’s always the dangerous, isn’t it? But that is the constant danger because there is so much noise in the system at the moment. So, I definitely have the risk of going through days and just thinking "I've done an awful lot today. I may not have achieved that much today."
Charles: (7:10)
Obviously, as everybody has evolved their way through this. We've gone from reacting in the first couple of weeks to this remarkable change and very rapid change and then dealing in the aftermath of that and then we're now, I think more and more people are starting to think about, "Okay, what's next?" And, "What does the future look like?" And, "How far out do I have to think?" What is your timeframe? What are you looking at in terms of where we will be by when? How are you planning for that?
Emma Cookson: (7:39)
It's interesting. I heard at one company, I think they're doing a very good, there's a large scale company doing a very good approach to this different time horizons thing. They actually had three different response teams. They divided their response teams into three so that one group of people was focused on the immediate crisis. One was focused on the challenges of coming out of it because that transition period I think is the hardest of all. And, then one on, how do you accelerate growth coming out the other end. And, just by having that demarcation of people so that the same people are not trying to look from different perspectives. I thought it was a very interesting way of structuring.
So, what are we doing? Yeah, I think, well, in the case of running MOFILM and the company, I am very much running that company in the moment with, we're running it very much according to horizon of weeks a month. So, it's very difficult to know what the flow of business is going to be, because it MOFILM has is essentially a content creation, content production company through a dispersed network. So, it's actually a very relevant model right now because they can still shoot people. Professionals can shoot at home and around their homes and once some of the social distancing restrictions change, they'll still be able to shoot when people still can't travel to shoots. Anyway, the point is, it's a constant flux of some jobs getting postponed, some jobs getting canceled, some totally new jobs coming in, some totally new clients coming because the model is so relevant and people are looking around for new ways of doing things.
So, leadership, it really is quite week to week, month to month. We're just trying to work out what is the normal? What can we count on? What should we be forecasting forward from? So, that we can get obviously resources aligned to that. And, I don't know if it's my failing but I think it really is at least, let's just see what quarter two ends up being like. Our financial year is a calendar year. Let's just look at quarter two and work out what the normal is and then slightly worry quarter three, quarter four.
At a group level, yeah, it's much longer term horizon. The group is all about equipping marketers for a much bigger longer scale transition to marketing through technology, marketing which is primarily digital. So, actually, honestly not that much needs to change. What's happening with the COVID crisis is just a dramatic acceleration of what we've been seeing anyway. So, we don't, obviously we're being very careful. There's lots of stuff you have to watch carefully, but we don't have to change our trajectory. It's like as I say, it's like an acceleration of forces that were already working quite, quite well.
Charles: (10:47)
So, you were already multiple years out in terms of thinking about how?
Emma Cookson: (10:51)
You have to think, well, again, the theory behind the group is there's a, well obviously it’s not a theory, it's true. There's been this massive, massive, massive disruption of marketing and mobile phone technology is the force behind it. The mobile phone in particular is the driver of it and we're building a new model, which is a tech and tech enabled one to equip brands to do that. So, that's necessarily a medium into a longer term horizon that we're investing in companies or building companies according to. So, again that doesn't really change that if anything that just gets faster towards that horizon. So, it is quite, it is quite interesting there being some quite funny, I've seen a few tweets and memes about who's driving your digital disruption? Is it your CEO or is it your CIO or is it COVID? Basically, it is an extraordinary force for digital transformation.
Charles: (11:55)
And, what are you seeing in terms of how you put teams together? Has that changed at all? I mean one of the things that somebody said to me a couple of weeks ago was that they've recognized the importance of having different personalities involved more than just simply the expertise or the experience that they would normally cast the team around. They're now thinking or seeing we need people who are positive energy, who bring kind of positivity to a conversation as part of it. Are you adjusting how you put teams together?
Emma Cookson: (12:21)
What I've noticed is that people have sort of adopted more generalist roles. So, everyone's conscious that, okay, this is a very unusual situation. There's some sense of emergency around things. So, I need to do what is needed, not necessarily what is just my thing. So, and I talk about this particularly in the MOFILM example. For example, we have teams, you have creative people who are producers or client facing leaders, et cetera. I feel like the teams that are built for a particular assignment, it feels particularly like everybody's stepping out of their core zone and helping out in other zones.
So, some of the most interesting ideas about new ways to grow content haven't just come from the creative directors, but have come from the producers or have come from the client facing side. So, I think it's, I'm not sure I'd say that we're structuring teams differently, but I'm noticing that the way teams work is slightly different. In a positive way, people seem to be, yeah, just sort of embracing more and I'm stepping out to where the need is more than, just where their official zone or their official role remit is. Which is really, yeah, it's really nice, I have to say. It's very uplifting.
Charles: (13:47)
And, then do you have to adapt your leadership to give people more room to do that are you finding?
Emma Cookson: (13:54)
Yes, but I don't think... that's not very difficult, I don't think. Because if people are leaning in and being successful, I think it's fairly easy. The main thing I think that's different about leadership at the moment is, I just think it's just much more personal. I think businesses just got more personal. I notice it all over the place. This is interacting with, whether it's clients or partners, et cetera, that every conversation, even quite formal professional conversations, they tend to start with, they kickoff with a personal connection, which is genuine. Like people say, "How are you? Where are you? What are you doing? How are you finding things? You having to look after kids?" And, they really mean it. People are genuinely asking and concerned and as a result, there's some quite funny sides of it as well.
I've noticed I have quite a lot of meetings with people quite, senior execs, they haven't put their makeup on or they look a little bit disheveled or someone's kid runs across the screen or someone's teenager’s swearing in the background. The human, it's like comes to the fore. Like it's sort of, the traditional demarcation between human and profess—, like personal professional self has got somewhat blurred. And, I think it's very interesting because as I said, I think it's genuine. I think it's quite universal and it means that you really can strengthen or forge strong relationships. I mean it's a genuine big opportunity I think, and I don't mean it in a nasty exploitative way, but just, you tend to form your strongest friendships in difficult times. I don't know. I think some strong business relationships are getting forged at the moment, which is a real opportunity for the future.
It will be remembered. "Okay, this partner was helpful, genuinely helpful, genuinely empathetic, genuinely responsive in a tough time." That's the opportunity for a lot of the companies I think. But, they're doing a good job. That's what leadership is about. Showing how we can be valued.
Charles: (16:10)
So, is there more respect?
Emma Cookson: (16:12)
Yeah, and it's a respect forged on a different degree and quality of partnership and alignment. So, of course at the end of the day, of course you've got to have relevant capabilities, relevant skills, a relevant offering. But, you can have all that without forming a strong relationship. And, in a world where there's always more supply than demand, more expertise than need, relationships still count quite a lot, so it's quite valuable.
Charles: (16:49)
Perfect. I think so too. And, it's a perfect pivot actually. So, that's obviously potentially a real benefit to come out of this, that relationships will be more human, will be more based on genuine respect and appreciation of each other as people, not just as providers of assets or attributes or skills. What else do you think might come out of this that will be good?
Emma Cookson: (17:08)
I think people are seeing, well I'm certainly seeing, because like any crisis, you're forced to be fast. Things are happening, good things are happening fast. You are seeing what you can do with limited resources, separate resources and at high pace because you just have to do things at high pace at the moment, so you can't really forget that afterwards. Like, "Okay, well we turn around that whole job from brief to launch in a week so we could do that again, couldn't we? It wasn't impossible." I think that, I hope that the muscle memory of the pace of that will stay in lots of places and then there's just the straight forwardness of interaction to me. Yeah, it's about those relationships but also just the straightforward dealings that are going on because people are, there is a human to human connection.
It just works much better when there's less posturing and less sort of slightly phony, weird artificial professional speak and professional intonation that gets into certain interactions which is just weird. So, I hope that'll shake out of it. And, then of course, people are experimenting. That's the other thing. What we're seeing, I mean obviously we're a new model, a disruptive model of how to do marketing. And, what's happened is people through necessity are having to experiment and look for new things. I just talked about MOFILM. It's an easy example for me because it's content creation production. You can't do traditional shoots, traditional productions at the moment. MOFILM has had for years, this disperse crowd of filmmakers, they can do stuff in and around now their homes and their neighborhoods and they've got at home equipment, et cetera. It's like everybody has got an immediate need. So, I had to start suddenly looking, "Oh, could we use UGC?” Or "Could we use a dispersed network?" And, we're literally getting Fortune 200 brands finding us by Googling. I mean, it's amazing.
You know, calling up and saying, "Could you possibly shoot these lifestyle shots? Could you do this, that and the other?" And, I think that attitude of experimentation and, is there a new model, is there a more efficient model? Is there a new way? I think that will stick because once you found…again I'm talking about a narrow example because it just happens to be one that's close to what I'm doing day to day, but the same thing be happening all over the place. Oh, necessity means I have to see, is there a different model? Is there a new way? Or once I found it or found that just by thinking about it, there are new ones. I don't think people are going to forget that and just revert back to, "Okay, now we'll go back to doing my traditional shoots with my gigantic pre-production meetings" and flying people all over the world, et cetera.
Charles: (20:09)
Last question for you. What are you learning about yourself?
Emma Cookson: (20:13)
Well, on the downside, I have been reminded that I am not necessarily good enough at orderly division of my time. I am easily distracted by something interesting or urgent that comes in. And, because of living on Zoom, everything is just present and coming at you all the time. So, I have now tried to be more structured about literally just carving out time. This is when I will do my thinking or this I'll do my longer term stuff, et cetera. So, I suppose it's not even, is it a learning? Or is it a reminder of a practice that I should do more?
I've definitely learned that as a leader that little and often communication is better than big and occasional. It is interesting. We have, in MOFILM we have a daily standup, which was not me who instigated it, it was the team instigated it as soon as we went into working from home. And, it's just again, it's not an unusual thing this, but it's every single day for half an hour we do that. And, then I have one-on-ones and regular pattern with key people and it's interesting just how useful and productive that is as opposed to sort of big one-off transmissions. It's a bit like people say, when you're giving personal feedback, that big annual reviews are much less helpful than leaders or managers who after each key meeting or a key attraction will just give you a little bit of organic feedback that's pertinent to the there and now.
Again, it's that little and often rather than big, and occasional. And, in a time where everything is very, very full on and fire hosey that feels even more appropriate. Yeah.
Charles: (22:13)
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time. I know you're busy across multiple fronts and I really appreciate you taking the time and giving us the insight.
Emma Cookson: (22:23)
It is a pleasure. It's nice to talk.
—————
Let us know if there are other guests you’d like to hear from, and areas you’d like to know more about or questions you have.
And don’t forget to share Fearless with your friends and colleagues.
If you’d like more, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com where you’ll find the audio and the transcripts of every episode.
If you’d like to know more about our leadership practice, go to thelookinglass.com where you’ll also find links to articles I’ve written for Fast Company and for the Profitable Creativity blog on creative leadership.
Fearless is produced by Podfly. Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Producer and Editor. Sarah Pardoe is the Media Director for Fearless.
Thanks for listening.
